Logicking

[insomnikat]

My new fangirl crush is Iwan Rheon.

How much of a fangirl crush? If I was expecting a baby this year, it'd have a Welsh name. Its embarrassing.

Iwan Rheon has been cast for season 3 of Game of Thrones.

Frack, why couldn't you do a proper British period drama or something!?

I don't want to watch Game of Thrones and (IMO) its scarring sex for the sake

Comments

[insomnikat]

I watched maybe 1/3 of the first season of Game of Thrones + the Wiki of the book series and I just couldn't get into it. Mostly because I got spoiled and found out that the handful of characters I did find mildly interesting end up dying sooner rather than later. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. With the exception of Arya. Also, its just so darn depressing when not being disturbingly or perversely graphic. As you know, I have no problem with sex on tv, and I understand most of the ones I find pretty crude are important to the canon plot, but I just can't get any enjoyment from a show or novel where 4 times out of 5, the sex is not what you can call beautiful, consensual or pleasurable lovemaking. Call me a romantic idealist or whatever, but I find it seriously wrong in the world that of all the sexxxed-up English book and/or tv series out there right now, Game of Thrones is the most popular among the current generation.

This probably makes me look old, but I miss romcoms. I like to read and watch stories to escape the real world and feel something OTHER than more depressed and gloomy that the world is full of fucked up people and good people are generally incompetent and/or self-sacrificing and are always the first to die.

Also, it annoys me to hell that they have these dragons and dire wolves but they don't really do anything. Not when it really REALLY matters, anyway.

Also, the pickings for strong, likeable female characters with spunk are, like, 1. And she isn't even a teenager yet. Dragon girl is ok too, but she still seemed a bit bland, even after season 2. And what counted as her "story," insofar as I've seen and heard from fandom that I can't not be exposed to, just further added to my annoyance about how women are portrayed, sexual or otherwise.

*deep breath*

Sorry, but that is my GoT rant. I hate it that people keep saying its awesome, but don't actually specify anything besides general "the storytelling is intense", "Jaime/Jon is hot!" (neither strike my fancy) and "Tyrion is the best!" I just don't swoon over excessively depressing storylines. Other examples: The Road. Les Mis.

[poshlil]

I... have massive problems with the fandom, actually, because it's gotten infinitely more stupid since they made the show. The books are basically a fantasy version of the Twelve Caesars, which is the era of Rome I study, and which was full of death and rape and general bad stuff. And I guess I'm not watching the show for romance, I'm watching to see how they adapt the books that I love. Add to that the fact that in most of the fantasies I read, all my favourite characters die, and you end up with me just expecting all that and being a bit immune to the 'rocks fall, everyone dies' scenario. I guess the things I love it for - the political intrigue, the power play, etc - are things that most people *aren't* reading (or watching) for. The majority of fans I've met so far want the hotness. Sigh.

Yeah, this probably isn't your go-to series if that's what you want out of fantasy. Because of all those reasons up there. :P

As for character development, it's much, MUCH better in the book. Jaime is hot but not for the actor - he's got a wonderful progression from complete arsehole to dude with a moral backbone (if slightly questionably morals) by book five, and he's one of my favourite characters in anything I've read to date. Dany (dragon girl) gets loads more book time than the screen suggests, and we see her grow up from a timid little thing to an actual kick arse woman. Same with Arya, but she was never timid to begin with. There's much more magic/supernatural stuff in the books too, which is one of the few problems I have with the screen adaptation - there are half a hundred side storylines they've cut and I can see how they're not integral to the main plot, but they give the story SO MANY MORE dimensions. I had an argument with a friend the other day who's read the books and said "they don't add anything to the show" because ... what? I just didn't understand how she could say that, they add whole new worlds to it. But whatever. And finally, the portrayal of women - again, dealing with a world loosely based around first century Rome. I expect them to be downtrodden, because that's how they were. With the exception of a few, like Caesar's mother and Augustus' wife.

tl;dr (again!) really. If it's not your thing, that's cool. But I think it's awesome for so many reasons, and overall because of the books. When I tell people "Game of Thrones is amazing" I'm thinking of the books I've fallen in love with over the past eight or so years since I first read them. The writing is phenomenal, Martin's attention to world building is absolutely wonderful (despite my dislike of him as a person, he's an arrogant twat, but he can definitely write, sheesh), the characterisation IN THE BOOKS is perfectly paced and utterly believable. And if you know the world the whole thing is based on the way I do, you come away going "holy hell, that was the next best thing to actually seeing first century Rome in person". Which sounds so weird, because there were no dragons or anything in Rome, obviously, but it's the only way I can really describe it. It's a wonderful AU of the emperors and all the treachery and backstabbing and politics that went on, and I loved it.

(I also love Les Mis, but only as the musical and only because I like to have my heart ripped out by catchy theatre productions. The Road I found tragically bleak and my appreciation was solely for literary craft. The story I was nonplussed by.)

[insomnikat]

I think we agree then that 99% of the fandom GoT has sparked is downright wrong and embarrassing. But alas, this masochistic 50 Shades crowd are what HBO is really catering to with the series. And are also probably a driving force behind the book sales. And THAT is probably the main source of my dislike. That the "worst" part of the story is what's trending and popular, and therefore sensationalized.

I completely understand about the details and historical accuracy (more or less). I also know exactly what you mean about Jaimie and Dany because I read their ENTIRE WIKI up to whatever the latest book was. And they do sound very much like characters I would like. Eventually. But not enough to be worth all the depressing politics, scarring scenes and annoying characters who are only getting more screentime than they're worth because fandom claims them pretty and their plight "tragic" and "romantic" but actually should not in any way be considered that of a role model and I CANNOT BELIEVE some people would openly wish they could be her. (Can you guess who I'm referring to?)

[poshlil]

Yeah, definitely. I have issues with people complaining (not you obviously!) about how the book is degrading to women and not worth reading, because... well, yeah, it is, but it's also historically accurate. It's like saying "well, the 1500's was degrading to women and therefore not worth studying!" Context is everything.

Fangirls are scary. Ultimately, they exist to ruin ordinary people's lives. And yes, agreed, they defend whichever one they claim as being not at all as bad as they're meant to be (Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei) or just misunderstood (Jaime) when really, those characters *are* morally corrupt and *are* awful people, and the fact that it's based on a truth or that they improve doesn't make them any less reprehensible in the short term. And really, if you're not going to like the character in book form - a comment I hear frequently from Jaime fangirls, "oh I hated him in the books" - then how is it anything besides a giant hypocrisy to like the screen adaptation because he's pretty? *flails a bit*

If you're referring to Sansa Stark, then I agree. I find her an awful, awful character, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever (pretty sure GRRM intended her that way, as a caricature of the Roman women who did sit down and shut up and do what they were told) and I honestly wish she was one of the ones who was killed off early. She's a vile, two-faced little brat. (Thankfully she gets less book time than Arya, who is ten kinds of awesome.)

[insomnikat]

I have an issue with these people too! But I think its mostly again because of the "confusion" in marketing and word-of-mouth -- it is NOT a fantasy series. Not really. It has the elements, but they are in no way the driving force of the majority of the storylines. They are there to hide the fact that it was originally written as a historical fiction/interpretation of the stories that go on behind the actual warring. Those don't sell half as well as saying "WE HAVE DRAGONS AND LOTS OF SEX! COME SEE!"

I wrote this whole mini-essay/rant about why TRUE BLOOD works for HBO because it strayed early on from a crappy book series -- one in which I did regrettably read 2 novels from (but only because a coworker claimed the books were better and -- well, as a general rule they are). One that read like a smutty fanfic but was at least enjoyable because it was written before the True Blood deal. And the other "recent" one that was so shitty and clearly written by an author who was told she had 2 more novels to write on her contract and told she should "learn from Twilight" and draw out the non-existent love triangle by making the main character more of a stupid, shallow, non-character developing blonde who EVERY MAN will fall in love with by the end of the novel for no apparent reason except that every other man has fallen in love with her so that proves she's special. It was the one book I have ever felt so disgusted by I threw in the garbage. I even skipped 80+ pages to the end just to make sure I didn't miss anything (I didn't). *cough* But, yeah, I forgot the point I was trying to make. I think it was something like -- True Blood is an HBO series purely based on kinky paranormal sex, and it works because it at least admits it. It knows what genre it is (SMUT) and it matches the genre its catering to.

Yes, I also wanted Sansa to die and I was SO disappointed that one of the few characters I would've actually looked forward to see dying actually doesn't (yet). I also agree that she deserves being where she is because that's the person she wanted to be, in the place she wanted to be in, by the end of season 1. It wasn't a cruel twist of fate or anything -- that's where she thought she belonged and so that's where she stays. If anything, it should've been a cautionary tale for "fangirls" that shallow love is just that -- blind and shallow. Its sickening to see it twisted into a "she's just a beautiful sad damsel in distress waiting for someone handsome to save her."

[poshlil]

I agree, it's not. Or at least, not pure, high Tolkien fantasy. It's not at all good versus evil. It's at best historically-based fantasy, with a lot more history than fantasy. A whole lot more.

Yes. This. True Blood is complete trash and when I'm in the mood for complete trash, I'll happily watch an episode. Same with Cruel Intentions - it never pretended to not be a trashy, cheesy film. And tbh, if I weren't so in love with the GoT books, I think I'd probably be more bothered about the things that are bugging you. I do overlook a lot of things if feelings are involved.

AGREED! Definitely. She does improve - slightly - by the later books, but I have yet to really warm to her. Or to stop wishing she'd die.

[insomnikat]

I actually get annoyed with True Blood when it tries to have "serious story/character development". I watch because this kind of smut is rare and refreshing. My favourite character is Jason, and I think one of his best (and most telling) lines was something like, "I shouldn't be smart enough to feel depressed!"

LOL, I think having strong, well-developed female characters is only a secondary requirement for me compared to having NO frustratingly annoying and weak female character who exists only to self-pity and blame everyone but herself for her situation.

[poshlil]

And sorry, I missed that bit about the "popular" trending stuff. It's the reason I try and stay away from the GOT fandom as a whole for that reason. It makes me rage. I'm partway through re-reading the books and the further I get, the more I miss the days when the fandom was solely a book fandom, and populated by intelligent people who could hold a discussion about plot points, rather than just vomit out their feelings with gifs of Jaime's face.

[insomnikat]

Your genuine praise for the book series has me ALMOST considering being less severe in my general dislike of GoT. Its not the books fault I don't like the story. It just caters to reading tastes not compatible with mine. And I can respect that. But the fandom has permanently stained it so that its hard for me not to get all worked up against everything the series and its popularity (for all the wrong reasons) means about the majority of people who are watching it.

And returning to the original topic, that's why it made me clench my jaw when I read the news of Iwan's casting. Its great for his exposure as an actor, sure. But the crap that has to go along with it likely means I won't be able to bring myself to watch him in it.

[poshlil]

And that I can totally understand. There's some stuff I'd love to love, but the fandom has destroyed it for me. (S5 and 6 of Who, for instance. Sigh.) Game of Thrones will never be everyone's cup of tea, and that is totally fine.

That reaction is pretty much what my reaction was - using Who as the example - when I read that Neil Gaiman wrote an episode. Because I adore him, he's one of my favourite authors and probably the one who was most influential on me as a writer, but the idea of having to suffer him writing for a fandom I actively detested at the time, it was hard going. I didn't watch his episode until nearly six months after it aired. And of course it was beautiful, but I couldn't quite get past all the staining that the fandom had left on it, so I still don't think I'm capable of enjoying it as much as I would have otherwise.

(re: your comment below, there is nothing worse than a self-indulgent pity party. In tv or in real life. I have friends who are prone to it, and ew. No.)

[insomnikat]

I love Neil Gaiman too! Most of the time. The only book I never got hooked enough to finish was American Gods, which is ironic because I think that's his most praised work. And his storytelling does fit well in the Who-verse: clever, weird and varying levels of dark.

That's probably going to be what I end up doing too -- just wait for GoT Season 3 to finish and then watch the video compilations of JUST Iwan's scenes on Youtube. Because that's what Youtube is for.

[poshlil]

What did we do before youtube? I genuinely don't know how I functioned. ;D