Milliways and Social interaction - A log.
See what happens when you guys sleep? Crack chat gets intellectual.
sdelmonte:how did you find the Bar?
rushin_doll: Hehe. Long, complex story.
sdelmonte :isn't it always?
rushin_doll: So, my educational background is in community interaction and complex social structures. Which led me into tabletop roleplaying and roleplaying theory.
sdelmonte: wow
rushin_doll: And really game play and design in general.
sdelmonte: game theory hurts my head, but it amazes me
rushin_doll: Since games can be functionally viewed as interfaces designed to shape social interaction, they're centered in my area of interest.
sdelmonte :and that sure is Milliways
rushin_doll: Anyway, the tabletop roleplaying theory people are pretty eclectic, and at some point a discussion of online freeform play came up, and Milliways got pointed to as an example.
rushin_doll: About the same time a friend of mine getting her PhD in digital video game design for education mentioned it in passing. So I started reading and watching.
sdelmonte:that is way cool.
innerbrat:If slightly scary
rushin_doll: Hehe.
innerbrat:I get all twitchy about people reading.
rushin_doll: Well, it gives me a pretty radical perspective on things since I don't really come from a traditional fandom and fanfic background.
sdelmonte: that's good as it brings a new approach to the game. we need new blood, and you have done a great job so far
rushin_doll: Hehe. Thanks.
sdelmonte: I am a long time fanboy but I am not part of the fanfic community.
rushin_doll: I've been thinking a lot about interface issues and community shaping with the Bar specifically.
rushin_doll: Part of what's interesting is that, because it's all handled through LJ, the players have less control over how the interface works than they do in face-to-face interactions.
rushin_doll: Okay, I really shouldn't get started. It won't take long before I start rambling about interfaces and authority structures and example setting and you start bleeding from the ears :-)
sdelmonte: it's still an interesting topic.
rushin_doll: -I- certainly think so :-)
sdelmonte: I am closer to some of the people in the game than to longtime friends these days
sdelmonte: even thugh I have met maybe 15 muns
rushin_doll: Relationships are built upon interaction, I spend a pretty significant amount of time online, so I know the feeling. You just interact with those people a lot more.
sdelmonte :only some, and often with people I rarely play with.
sdelmonte: we had a whole pack of players here last weekend, but they were almost all people Batya plays with, not me
rushin_doll: Which, really, is pretty dang awesome. It means that you can be friends with people who share a really weird interest like Milliways with. You're not limited to just the people nearby.
sdelmonte: I already had that as part of filk fandom. We have good friends all over the US and a few overseas
sdelmonte: but Milliways expanded on that. I have a friend in Brisbane!
rushin_doll: *nod*
rushin_doll: We have models that explain this sort of thing in sociology :-)
sdelmonte: that shouldn't be a surprise
sdelmonte: does that mean we aren't that weird?
rushin_doll: Hehe.
rushin_doll: Not especially, no. Though we are a bit more geographically diverse than many groups.
sdelmonte : what I find most interesting is that in many circumstances, I don't hit it off with poeple a lot younger than me - Im' the old man of the game at 38. But that has never been a problem with the Millfolken
rushin_doll : Interesting.
sdelmonte: we have some amazingly mature college kids, as well
rushin_doll: So I've been noticing.
sdelmonte :and high school
-----------------------
rushin_doll That's one thing that I really like about Milliways. The need to generate Millicanon makes people, at least so far and in my experience, a bit less uptight about canon in general.
rushin_doll: Could be I've just missed the big fights.
sdelmonte: no, that is the rule here,.
sdelmonte: though it's easier to use finished canon, I think
sdelmonte: I have only played a couple of active pups
rushin_doll: Yeah. But even in finished canon there seems to be a strong sense that if the player makes it up, no one will fight over it.
sdelmonte: yup.
sdelmonte:I try to strike a balance.
rushin_doll: You read stuff out on the net with fics and stuff and you'll see big fights over this or that creation or extrapolation.
sdelmonte:it gets silly
rushin_doll: I agree ;-)
sdelmonte: though it's from canonlove
rushin_doll: I remain unconvinced that that is the driving force behind it ;-)
sdelmonte : ego?
sdelmonte:wank?
rushin_doll: Well, I think it has to do with validation.
sdelmonte : as in, everyone wants some validation?
rushin_doll : Also, be warned, canon and its impact on fandom are something of a major interest of mine.)
sdelmonte : that's fine. I have a friend who treats her obseesion with Supernatural that way
rushin_doll : Well, everyone is interpreting canon, right? I mean, for the most part we don't care terribly about what happens, we're mostly worried about why.
sdelmonte : more or less. I like the what as well
rushin_doll : Like, Buffy took action X. We know that because we saw it. But then we try to build a model of -why- she did that.
sdelmonte : true
rushin_doll : Often this is not something people fight over.
sdelmonte :unless we are fighting about the writers
rushin_doll : Like, it's obvious to the vast majority of people that Buffy does X because she is Y. No argument.
sdelmonte :granted
rushin_doll : Sometimes things are a bit more ambiguous, of course. Subtext, sexual tension, or just differing interpretations.
sdelmonte :all of which is part of canon
rushin_doll: Sure, but people tend to treat canon as if it's unarguable and accessible.
rushin_doll: You aren't supposed to argue with things that are canon. And not agreeing over what canon is demonstrates stupidity, not just a different interpretation.
rushin_doll: Anyway...
sdelmonte I get it
sdelmonte:it all does get messy
sdelmonte:and is probably why I stay in the safe place in fandom
sdelmonte:and why i play pups no one in the game will argue about
rushin_doll : Hehe.
innerbrat: back
rushin_doll: The reason I think validation is at work here is this...
rushin_doll: People interpret ambiguous parts of canon in ways that make that canon most meaningful to them.
sdelmonte :definitely
rushin_doll: So, for instance, one of my fandoms is Gunslinger Girl. And while I'm willing to let you say that the primary themes of the series aren't child-rearing, education, and indoctrination... you'd be wrong if you disagreed with me :-)
rushin_doll: But that's because those are issues that matter to me.
innerbrat: *reads up*
sdelmonte:we're getting all serious. :-)
rushin_doll: Since we treat canon interpretation as if it is unassailable, it becomes important that your interpretation be the objective interpretation.
sdelmonte:I suppose there are canons that I have done that with, but I can't think of any right now
innerbrat:Part of the reason we don't fight over canon interpretations is because the very nature of the game gives people authority over canon.
rushin_doll: Right. That's part of my point. And it's something I very much like.
innerbrat:Like... the only person who gets to say what's acceptable for Buffy is apoetneedspain
sdelmonte :the only place you might have a problem is in a shared canon
sdelmonte:but I think all the SW muns works together, and so forth
innerbrat : And while there's parts of "Slayer" mythology that I don't like as a canon interpretation, they were introduced by the first Buffy so I incorporated it into play
rushin_doll : Well, part of it is just maturity. We all sort of agree to play together, and sometimes that means compromise.
sdelmonte :I had a much harder time adapting to real canon crap being dumped on Barry than anything anyone in the game ever did with the DC Universe
rushin_doll : Some day, hopefully), there will be more Red Star muns, and I'll have to give up some of my control of canon.
innerbrat:And being a power mad person, I'm lucky that Lynne and Amy talk a lot.
innerbrat:And few people do things about the Discworld I disagree with.
rushin_doll: Hehe. That helps too.
innerbrat: But then, individual character interpretation is up to them/
sdelmonte :I will admit that I phased out Lando in part because book canon was not my thing at all, and all the SW pups are from the books. But the players are not at all at fault
rushin_doll : Ah. Good ol' open canons. All ruining your characters.
innerbrat:I can bitch all I want about how, for example, Barry was OOC (he wasn't), but that doesn't affect play because Eska only interacted with the version Alex wrote anyway
rushin_doll: I have a whole nother rant on that issue :-)
innerbrat:Ha. I've recently realised that Angua isn't the same character from book-to-book
sdelmonte : that would explain Thud
innerbrat :She's whatever fits the jokes Terry wants to make about women and werewolves.
sdelmonte :so which book is your guide?
rushin_doll : Part of my problems with canon stuff is that I find myself much more interested in how people interpret canon than in what I see in canon.
innerbrat:Ah, I'm the other way round.
innerbrat:I'm not interested in fanon, only what I think is canon.
rushin_doll: Like, I may say "Huh, that's not how I saw that character, but it says a lot about you that you see him/her that way."
sdelmonte: I'm like Debi. though playing a pup like Knox gives me so much room
rushin_doll : Well, I'm not really interested in fanon either. I'm interested in personal interpretation.
sdelmonte:tiny canon means big play space
innerbrat:Yeah, I'm like: "but the universe works like this..."
rushin_doll: Like, I bet we have at least slightly different takes on Mel.
innerbrat:Oh I bet
rushin_doll: And knowing what you find cool about her is super-cool to me.
innerbrat:I have a slightly different take on Mel than how I play her >_>
rushin_doll: Even when it doesn't, quite, match up with me.
rushin_doll: Heh. I have a slightly different take on how I read Makita than how I play her.
innerbrat:My favourite part about Millicanon is how we take it more seriously than canon
rushin_doll: Heh.
innerbrat :Remeber, Alex, last year when it was also "OMG Tonks can't be with Remus, she's with Bernard!"
sdelmonte:yes.
innerbrat: And I bet everyone's going to come back from the turtle movie saying "Well, they were OOC."
sdelmonte: I have the same reaction to Sara/Grissom on the real CSI
sdelmonte:not that I watch, but still...
rushin_doll: I think that's one of the draws of Milliways for me.
sdelmonte:Sara belongs with Barry or Mark
innerbrat:Well, I can watch Hellboy, even if Angua dated him in Apharsites and he snogs Mel's PB.
rushin_doll: The fact that canon that other people make is less interesting that what we make.
innerbrat:*nods* I think that too. But I think that about lots of stuff. I don't read any fanfic, and I never lurked on Milliways. I play.
sdelmonte:how did you find the Bar?
rushin_doll: Hehe. Long, complex story.
sdelmonte :isn't it always?
rushin_doll: So, my educational background is in community interaction and complex social structures. Which led me into tabletop roleplaying and roleplaying theory.
sdelmonte: wow
rushin_doll: And really game play and design in general.
sdelmonte: game theory hurts my head, but it amazes me
rushin_doll: Since games can be functionally viewed as interfaces designed to shape social interaction, they're centered in my area of interest.
sdelmonte :and that sure is Milliways
rushin_doll: Anyway, the tabletop roleplaying theory people are pretty eclectic, and at some point a discussion of online freeform play came up, and Milliways got pointed to as an example.
rushin_doll: About the same time a friend of mine getting her PhD in digital video game design for education mentioned it in passing. So I started reading and watching.
sdelmonte:that is way cool.
innerbrat:If slightly scary
rushin_doll: Hehe.
innerbrat:I get all twitchy about people reading.
rushin_doll: Well, it gives me a pretty radical perspective on things since I don't really come from a traditional fandom and fanfic background.
sdelmonte: that's good as it brings a new approach to the game. we need new blood, and you have done a great job so far
rushin_doll: Hehe. Thanks.
sdelmonte: I am a long time fanboy but I am not part of the fanfic community.
rushin_doll: I've been thinking a lot about interface issues and community shaping with the Bar specifically.
rushin_doll: Part of what's interesting is that, because it's all handled through LJ, the players have less control over how the interface works than they do in face-to-face interactions.
rushin_doll: Okay, I really shouldn't get started. It won't take long before I start rambling about interfaces and authority structures and example setting and you start bleeding from the ears :-)
sdelmonte: it's still an interesting topic.
rushin_doll: -I- certainly think so :-)
sdelmonte: I am closer to some of the people in the game than to longtime friends these days
sdelmonte: even thugh I have met maybe 15 muns
rushin_doll: Relationships are built upon interaction, I spend a pretty significant amount of time online, so I know the feeling. You just interact with those people a lot more.
sdelmonte :only some, and often with people I rarely play with.
sdelmonte: we had a whole pack of players here last weekend, but they were almost all people Batya plays with, not me
rushin_doll: Which, really, is pretty dang awesome. It means that you can be friends with people who share a really weird interest like Milliways with. You're not limited to just the people nearby.
sdelmonte: I already had that as part of filk fandom. We have good friends all over the US and a few overseas
sdelmonte: but Milliways expanded on that. I have a friend in Brisbane!
rushin_doll: *nod*
rushin_doll: We have models that explain this sort of thing in sociology :-)
sdelmonte: that shouldn't be a surprise
sdelmonte: does that mean we aren't that weird?
rushin_doll: Hehe.
rushin_doll: Not especially, no. Though we are a bit more geographically diverse than many groups.
sdelmonte : what I find most interesting is that in many circumstances, I don't hit it off with poeple a lot younger than me - Im' the old man of the game at 38. But that has never been a problem with the Millfolken
rushin_doll : Interesting.
sdelmonte: we have some amazingly mature college kids, as well
rushin_doll: So I've been noticing.
sdelmonte :and high school
-----------------------
rushin_doll That's one thing that I really like about Milliways. The need to generate Millicanon makes people, at least so far and in my experience, a bit less uptight about canon in general.
rushin_doll: Could be I've just missed the big fights.
sdelmonte: no, that is the rule here,.
sdelmonte: though it's easier to use finished canon, I think
sdelmonte: I have only played a couple of active pups
rushin_doll: Yeah. But even in finished canon there seems to be a strong sense that if the player makes it up, no one will fight over it.
sdelmonte: yup.
sdelmonte:I try to strike a balance.
rushin_doll: You read stuff out on the net with fics and stuff and you'll see big fights over this or that creation or extrapolation.
sdelmonte:it gets silly
rushin_doll: I agree ;-)
sdelmonte: though it's from canonlove
rushin_doll: I remain unconvinced that that is the driving force behind it ;-)
sdelmonte : ego?
sdelmonte:wank?
rushin_doll: Well, I think it has to do with validation.
sdelmonte : as in, everyone wants some validation?
rushin_doll : Also, be warned, canon and its impact on fandom are something of a major interest of mine.)
sdelmonte : that's fine. I have a friend who treats her obseesion with Supernatural that way
rushin_doll : Well, everyone is interpreting canon, right? I mean, for the most part we don't care terribly about what happens, we're mostly worried about why.
sdelmonte : more or less. I like the what as well
rushin_doll : Like, Buffy took action X. We know that because we saw it. But then we try to build a model of -why- she did that.
sdelmonte : true
rushin_doll : Often this is not something people fight over.
sdelmonte :unless we are fighting about the writers
rushin_doll : Like, it's obvious to the vast majority of people that Buffy does X because she is Y. No argument.
sdelmonte :granted
rushin_doll : Sometimes things are a bit more ambiguous, of course. Subtext, sexual tension, or just differing interpretations.
sdelmonte :all of which is part of canon
rushin_doll: Sure, but people tend to treat canon as if it's unarguable and accessible.
rushin_doll: You aren't supposed to argue with things that are canon. And not agreeing over what canon is demonstrates stupidity, not just a different interpretation.
rushin_doll: Anyway...
sdelmonte I get it
sdelmonte:it all does get messy
sdelmonte:and is probably why I stay in the safe place in fandom
sdelmonte:and why i play pups no one in the game will argue about
rushin_doll : Hehe.
innerbrat: back
rushin_doll: The reason I think validation is at work here is this...
rushin_doll: People interpret ambiguous parts of canon in ways that make that canon most meaningful to them.
sdelmonte :definitely
rushin_doll: So, for instance, one of my fandoms is Gunslinger Girl. And while I'm willing to let you say that the primary themes of the series aren't child-rearing, education, and indoctrination... you'd be wrong if you disagreed with me :-)
rushin_doll: But that's because those are issues that matter to me.
innerbrat: *reads up*
sdelmonte:we're getting all serious. :-)
rushin_doll: Since we treat canon interpretation as if it is unassailable, it becomes important that your interpretation be the objective interpretation.
sdelmonte:I suppose there are canons that I have done that with, but I can't think of any right now
innerbrat:Part of the reason we don't fight over canon interpretations is because the very nature of the game gives people authority over canon.
rushin_doll: Right. That's part of my point. And it's something I very much like.
innerbrat:Like... the only person who gets to say what's acceptable for Buffy is apoetneedspain
sdelmonte :the only place you might have a problem is in a shared canon
sdelmonte:but I think all the SW muns works together, and so forth
innerbrat : And while there's parts of "Slayer" mythology that I don't like as a canon interpretation, they were introduced by the first Buffy so I incorporated it into play
rushin_doll : Well, part of it is just maturity. We all sort of agree to play together, and sometimes that means compromise.
sdelmonte :I had a much harder time adapting to real canon crap being dumped on Barry than anything anyone in the game ever did with the DC Universe
rushin_doll : Some day, hopefully), there will be more Red Star muns, and I'll have to give up some of my control of canon.
innerbrat:And being a power mad person, I'm lucky that Lynne and Amy talk a lot.
innerbrat:And few people do things about the Discworld I disagree with.
rushin_doll: Hehe. That helps too.
innerbrat: But then, individual character interpretation is up to them/
sdelmonte :I will admit that I phased out Lando in part because book canon was not my thing at all, and all the SW pups are from the books. But the players are not at all at fault
rushin_doll : Ah. Good ol' open canons. All ruining your characters.
innerbrat:I can bitch all I want about how, for example, Barry was OOC (he wasn't), but that doesn't affect play because Eska only interacted with the version Alex wrote anyway
rushin_doll: I have a whole nother rant on that issue :-)
innerbrat:Ha. I've recently realised that Angua isn't the same character from book-to-book
sdelmonte : that would explain Thud
innerbrat :She's whatever fits the jokes Terry wants to make about women and werewolves.
sdelmonte :so which book is your guide?
rushin_doll : Part of my problems with canon stuff is that I find myself much more interested in how people interpret canon than in what I see in canon.
innerbrat:Ah, I'm the other way round.
innerbrat:I'm not interested in fanon, only what I think is canon.
rushin_doll: Like, I may say "Huh, that's not how I saw that character, but it says a lot about you that you see him/her that way."
sdelmonte: I'm like Debi. though playing a pup like Knox gives me so much room
rushin_doll : Well, I'm not really interested in fanon either. I'm interested in personal interpretation.
sdelmonte:tiny canon means big play space
innerbrat:Yeah, I'm like: "but the universe works like this..."
rushin_doll: Like, I bet we have at least slightly different takes on Mel.
innerbrat:Oh I bet
rushin_doll: And knowing what you find cool about her is super-cool to me.
innerbrat:I have a slightly different take on Mel than how I play her >_>
rushin_doll: Even when it doesn't, quite, match up with me.
rushin_doll: Heh. I have a slightly different take on how I read Makita than how I play her.
innerbrat:My favourite part about Millicanon is how we take it more seriously than canon
rushin_doll: Heh.
innerbrat :Remeber, Alex, last year when it was also "OMG Tonks can't be with Remus, she's with Bernard!"
sdelmonte:yes.
innerbrat: And I bet everyone's going to come back from the turtle movie saying "Well, they were OOC."
sdelmonte: I have the same reaction to Sara/Grissom on the real CSI
sdelmonte:not that I watch, but still...
rushin_doll: I think that's one of the draws of Milliways for me.
sdelmonte:Sara belongs with Barry or Mark
innerbrat:Well, I can watch Hellboy, even if Angua dated him in Apharsites and he snogs Mel's PB.
rushin_doll: The fact that canon that other people make is less interesting that what we make.
innerbrat:*nods* I think that too. But I think that about lots of stuff. I don't read any fanfic, and I never lurked on Milliways. I play.