racism still exists, this much is true. what kills me is how folks think because they're not lynching black folk and/or calling them nigger that it automatically means they're not racist
( Read more... )
i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 06:06:16 UTC
i think it got a bit overwrought at the end. i think people started piling on him because it was the thing to do.
and i honestly think that much of it wasn't even about racism. it was about being "a man". in other words, having the balls to say how you feel against folks who don't believe as you do.
so they basically ranted on about him being a pussy, etc. what really made me step back was the parallels that started to develop to the situation he was experiencing at work.
for instance, the cbr folk started really questioning his manhood and insulting him on a personal level. to me all of those attacks were similar to the insults being made against black folks by his racist co-workers. it was like it just got ridiculous. no matter what the guy said, he was gonna get lambasted.
now i know i didn't agree with him and i stated my piece, but i didn't question his manhood. i did question his motivation because while initially it came across as him being obviously torn, it just descended into a bunch of whining.
the thing is, being a black person means i only get to whine about racism but for so long. then it's expected that i do something about it.
hell, even iwarrior said that when he was defending his non-action to me. he said "Black folks aren't doing much about their own plight. They're killing each other left and right in the streets. Most black people don't even vote. Working and poor people in general aren't doing much about their plight. They're too busy watching TV and shopping at Wal-Mart. They don't vote either. Most Americans don't vote or seem to care much about anything except who Britney's fucking."
so let me get this straight...he perceives black folks as not doing shit, so that means he doesn't have to do shit either. that was an unfair generalization on his part and it clued me into the fact that even folks who think they're not racist make unfair assumptions about blacks and other non-white folk.
again, i think the other cbr folk turned that thread into a insult match. however, i don't think he's helping it by throwing his own labels on them.
shit, i'm already through with that thread. i said my piece. it doesn't even make sense to continue with it since he said he did something about it.
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 08:59:26 UTC
iwarrior's comments about Blacks not doing much about their own plight stung a bit. I won't lie. However, I'm okay with it enough to still defend him because 1) I think it was just an example of the kind of desperation a person feels when they're constantly attacked - and then by one of the few people whom they THOUGHT were on their side (hope that makes sense) and 2) he's right that a number of Black leaders have said many of the same things, although with a bit more tact and prudence. It doesn't completely erase it, but I can let it slide. Nothing like being backed into a corner.
Regarding the thread, I'm back. I didn't intend to when you said it, but I took your advice and came back to let people know what I think the place has devolved into (or what it always was... whichever). I'm expecting to catch quite a bit of hell for it, but like people in that thread were saying, it was just the right thing to do.
I'm half-expecting a mod-edit or a banning. Too bad. I respect the hell out of Tom in a lot of ways. I wish he could see where I'm coming from about the Comm board, though - and his contributions to its current state.
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 11:55:14 UTC
what you say makes sense, and i was and am on his side. the thing is, i would expect him to be just as critical of my actions if were in his shoes (and by critical i don't mean insulting like many of the folks said there, but critical in a way that brings about self-examination.)
now while what i said might have come across as harsh, that's how i felt and i apologized for the tone afterwards (although i won't apologize for what i said). also, as i told iwarrior in a pm discussion we had afterwards, if i thought he was the kind of person who really didn't give a fuck or wasn't worth the effort, i wouldn't have even commented in the thread. however, as someone who has positioned themselves to be progressive enough in their thinking to fight against racism on the internet, i expect him (as i would think he would expect me) to hold up the fort offline, too.
being "politically correct" in a time where racism and all the other "isms" are still prevelent yet buried under fake politeness isn't what i think will end the "isms" and as someone who likes iwarrior, i felt it necessary to tell him so. i don't think i was insulting (but if you think i was, let me know...)
i definitely appreciate your feedback about this. it has made me think about my approach concerning this. what makes me appreciate it more is the fact that you would even take the time to tell me how you felt about my actions. while some of it makes me wonder if i did the right thing, i know you're telling me because you like me.
which is basically why i said what i said to iwarrior. believe me, had that been someone else like that samurai, i wouldn't have even wasted my time.
however, i think every single thing you said in that thread was valid, no matter what anyone else says. the funny thing about being in a clique is that you don't even realize you're excluding folks until it's brought up. i respect tom, too, but i was clued into what was going on when he and i got into it when i first got there. what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander, but folks don't want to see that for fear of coming across as being unfair (or hypocritical for that matter...)
i applaud you for telling them how you felt. here's to hoping what you say isn't dismissed...
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 12:38:53 UTC
I try to think of this like religion. A religious person might say that my living with my girlfriend (and all that entails) is wrong and threatens my, her, and our potential child's eternal souls. By the rationale of the people in that thread, the religious people I encounter are each obligated to tell me exactly how they feel if I start talking about my "sinful" habits around them. Their feelings will be known, this is true. However, no one wants to be preached at (although we all sometimes need it). It's not even practical for each of us to fight every battle every time. (I know racists and sinners aren't the same situations, but both have very real consequences to the person who objects to them.)
Sometimes, as many Christians would say, it's about being a living example, not just about grabbing people and telling them what's what. I think iwarrior could've just chilled until directly faced with a situation like the ones he responded to.
I still can't get over how hardly anyone called koop on his "jack up the ring-leader" thing.
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 13:30:14 UTC
honestly? i didn't even read 90% of what everyone wrote other than iwarrior. it just got too ugly. i tried to make the situation light by calling koop a drill sergeant, but that didn't work.
again, i see your point. however, the situations would be comparable if you had solicited the religious person's advice when it came to your living situation with your girl.
iwarrior asked what i thought he should do and i told him what i thought he should do.
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 15:04:28 UTC
You're right. Flawed analogy.
Also, thanks for commenting on the thread. I think the responses since my next-to-last post have been... lacking, but I see no point in responding further. We'll see if that changes.
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 15:23:54 UTC
Crap.
Call me Kerry b/c I'm a flip-flopper.
I just recalled that my analogy applied to iwarrior's situation with the racists at his job. iwarrior would be the religious person and the racists would be the sinners.
I just realized that as I was e-walking away. My brain may be mush, but I'm glad for what I did, glad for your and Ed's support, and damned glad to be home from work.
Re: i agree with you on the last partiniquitous1September 1 2004, 13:27:48 UTC
Also, I'd like to suggest that if you feel the way I do, that you say so in that thread. My main point has been that too many of us walk by the beat-down without helping the victim up.
Tom and others can continue to believe or say that there's no clique at CBR, as long as only one or two people disagree. If more people say it (only if they believe it, of course), it'd be harder to ignore, imo.
and i honestly think that much of it wasn't even about racism. it was about being "a man". in other words, having the balls to say how you feel against folks who don't believe as you do.
so they basically ranted on about him being a pussy, etc. what really made me step back was the parallels that started to develop to the situation he was experiencing at work.
for instance, the cbr folk started really questioning his manhood and insulting him on a personal level. to me all of those attacks were similar to the insults being made against black folks by his racist co-workers. it was like it just got ridiculous. no matter what the guy said, he was gonna get lambasted.
now i know i didn't agree with him and i stated my piece, but i didn't question his manhood. i did question his motivation because while initially it came across as him being obviously torn, it just descended into a bunch of whining.
the thing is, being a black person means i only get to whine about racism but for so long. then it's expected that i do something about it.
hell, even iwarrior said that when he was defending his non-action to me. he said "Black folks aren't doing much about their own plight. They're killing each other left and right in the streets. Most black people don't even vote. Working and poor people in general aren't doing much about their plight. They're too busy watching TV and shopping at Wal-Mart. They don't vote either. Most Americans don't vote or seem to care much about anything except who Britney's fucking."
so let me get this straight...he perceives black folks as not doing shit, so that means he doesn't have to do shit either. that was an unfair generalization on his part and it clued me into the fact that even folks who think they're not racist make unfair assumptions about blacks and other non-white folk.
again, i think the other cbr folk turned that thread into a insult match. however, i don't think he's helping it by throwing his own labels on them.
shit, i'm already through with that thread. i said my piece. it doesn't even make sense to continue with it since he said he did something about it.
Reply
Regarding the thread, I'm back. I didn't intend to when you said it, but I took your advice and came back to let people know what I think the place has devolved into (or what it always was... whichever). I'm expecting to catch quite a bit of hell for it, but like people in that thread were saying, it was just the right thing to do.
I'm half-expecting a mod-edit or a banning. Too bad. I respect the hell out of Tom in a lot of ways. I wish he could see where I'm coming from about the Comm board, though - and his contributions to its current state.
-west
Reply
now while what i said might have come across as harsh, that's how i felt and i apologized for the tone afterwards (although i won't apologize for what i said). also, as i told iwarrior in a pm discussion we had afterwards, if i thought he was the kind of person who really didn't give a fuck or wasn't worth the effort, i wouldn't have even commented in the thread. however, as someone who has positioned themselves to be progressive enough in their thinking to fight against racism on the internet, i expect him (as i would think he would expect me) to hold up the fort offline, too.
being "politically correct" in a time where racism and all the other "isms" are still prevelent yet buried under fake politeness isn't what i think will end the "isms" and as someone who likes iwarrior, i felt it necessary to tell him so. i don't think i was insulting (but if you think i was, let me know...)
i definitely appreciate your feedback about this. it has made me think about my approach concerning this. what makes me appreciate it more is the fact that you would even take the time to tell me how you felt about my actions. while some of it makes me wonder if i did the right thing, i know you're telling me because you like me.
which is basically why i said what i said to iwarrior. believe me, had that been someone else like that samurai, i wouldn't have even wasted my time.
however, i think every single thing you said in that thread was valid, no matter what anyone else says. the funny thing about being in a clique is that you don't even realize you're excluding folks until it's brought up. i respect tom, too, but i was clued into what was going on when he and i got into it when i first got there. what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander, but folks don't want to see that for fear of coming across as being unfair (or hypocritical for that matter...)
i applaud you for telling them how you felt. here's to hoping what you say isn't dismissed...
Reply
Sometimes, as many Christians would say, it's about being a living example, not just about grabbing people and telling them what's what. I think iwarrior could've just chilled until directly faced with a situation like the ones he responded to.
I still can't get over how hardly anyone called koop on his "jack up the ring-leader" thing.
I feel myself entering ramble mode, so... *waves*
-West
Reply
again, i see your point. however, the situations would be comparable if you had solicited the religious person's advice when it came to your living situation with your girl.
iwarrior asked what i thought he should do and i told him what i thought he should do.
Reply
Also, thanks for commenting on the thread. I think the responses since my next-to-last post have been... lacking, but I see no point in responding further. We'll see if that changes.
Thanks, again.
Reply
Call me Kerry b/c I'm a flip-flopper.
I just recalled that my analogy applied to iwarrior's situation with the racists at his job. iwarrior would be the religious person and the racists would be the sinners.
I just realized that as I was e-walking away. My brain may be mush, but I'm glad for what I did, glad for your and Ed's support, and damned glad to be home from work.
Reply
Tom and others can continue to believe or say that there's no clique at CBR, as long as only one or two people disagree. If more people say it (only if they believe it, of course), it'd be harder to ignore, imo.
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment