Uses and abuses of mythology

[seluecus]

I’ve been thinking and talking recently with ploratrix about the use (and misuse) of mythology in geek culture and popular media, so I thought I’d post something about it and ask for feedback from the community

Comments

[entelodont]

American Gods really pissed me off, actually. It should have been called European Gods and Some Gods That Neil Gaiman Made Up. It was incredibly whitecentric, and while I frankly don't trust Neil Gaiman to handle racial issues with class and grace, he could have made some effort to include the enormous amount of mythologies that truly evoke the breadth of the American landscape. I was incredibly disappointed, and it drives me nuts to hear it held up as a positive example when all I can see is the same old bullshit erasure.

On that note, I am still waiting to see a white-authored depiction of a Magical Latina that doesn't cause me to cringe. So often such characters are used as a way to exploit indigenous American cultures without the bother of having to be specific or respectful. In general, I despise seeing mythologies disrespected and reduced to yet another source of magic and monsters.

[etoilepb]

I do think it's worth noting, with Gaiman and American Gods, that Anansi was a major character and got a sequel to himself. Kali also features, as well as a handful of his other recurring non-European favorites. I'll definitely agree to the fact that it's mainly centered on Norse and Eastern European deities, though.

[foxie]

I read Anansi Boys first, which is a spin-off book about a character from American Gods and also includes almost no white characters. That may be why I didn't notice how whitewashed American Gods was when I read it. But, you're right, it is. I also remember thinking the part about the djinni was problematic.

That said, I think it's expected for a white male heterosexual to write a book like American Gods, and unusual for him to even try his hand at something like Anansi Boys. This is why it's good to read writing by a diverse group of people ... if all of them "write what they know," then you get the gift of a lot of different experiences by reading that writing

[entelodont]

I'm pretty damn sure he made up the god of the Internet, which is what I was referring to. And I'm not going to pat him on the head for writing stuff that slightly less fucked up than the status quo. His writing is downright reprehensible at times, and that needs to be acknowledged instead of humping his leg for trying, as if trying is somehow beneficial to marginalized people. If he is offensive, that is not to be respected; his willingness to exploit cultures that he doesn't "know" is just the same old white Western privilegefest I've read a million times.

[foxie]

I'm not some Neil Gaiman fangirl unwilling to admit any of that. But
there are plenty of other male writers that make me far more irritated.I have yet to find a writer who's "perfect" when it comes to not including anything racist, sexist, etc in their work. It's a spectrum. I know we come down hard around here on people for fucking up even a little bit in those areas, and that's understandable -- this is, after all, the place we go to talk about that. But the other side of that is, we ALL fuck up. We all have biases and we all grew up in a problematic society that taught us to assume things that aren't true, and we're all working to get past it. The most we can do is acknowledge and apologize when we do fuck up, and give others that chance

[entelodont]

Neil Gaiman is notoriously oblivious to criticisms to the depiction of marginalized people in his work. The fact that he's still making stupid remarks like the one I linked above after all this time proves it. I do not have to approve of someone's writing because there are worse depictions out there, nor do I have to accept the old "everyone makes mistakes" crap when stuff like this has been debated for decades, centuries even. He is not a child. He is a man with incredible privilege and as such there is no reason not to hold him accountable for what he does.

[seluecus]

Funnily enough, your dislike for Gaiman is now making me interested in checking out what he did with American Gods and Anansi Boys. I took a look at the list Foxie posted above of gods in the former book, and it looks like a really wide-ranging sample, which I think is pretty cool (since I'm interested in world mythology and not just a particular segment). And it sounds like Anansi Boys does step outside the boundaries of Western mythology (which, in itself, is a pretty nebulous concept

[entelodont]

The problem is that merely using another culture's myths or legendary figures does not automatically count as progressive, especially when the primary focus remains on white characters and their interests. I know that people are happy to acknowledged; I personally am not content with that, since it leads to a lot of unjustified head pats for white authors who are totally unmotivated to do the necessary research. The misrepresentation of my culture does not make me happy. I do not need white authors to "try", I want them to be respectful, and stay away from topics they don't have a handle on. The fact that people act as if this is just too much to ask is incredibly depressing.

[siadea]

Do you have a newsletter? May I subscribe to it?

[paperclipchains]

Uh, trying is beneficial to marginalized people. Attempts pave the way to success.

[siadea]

*coughs*

There is, I think, a difference between sincerely trying, listening to criticism, and being respectful, versus appropriation. Sometimes that line gets a little fuzzy. I'm a tribal librarian, and there are a ton of absolutely horrible books that get written about American Indians where people think they're being respectful and just don't want to hear that they weren't. Let me find that link...

...ah-ha! An Oft-Posed Question: Who Can Tell Your Stories? It's written by an absolutely wonderful blogger. I have the book of reviews she edited/co-authored, and it is incredibly helpful, even where I disagree with some of the reviews.

[mythrai]

"I haven't held their babies."

omg, what a wonderful way of putting it. ty for the link.

[entelodont]

No. If they are not taking advantage of the vast amount of material already available at the click of a button, material that would help them avoid this stupidity in the first place, then I am already assured that they do not think their opinions are flawed, that they do not stop to consider the opinions of marginalized people before tapping away at their manuscripts, that they do not learn. Perpetuating stereotypes, erasing entire groups of people, and wallowing in ignorance always serves to hurt marginalized people. It does not matter if you didn't mean it, or you didn't know better. Reality is not like a kindergarten classroom.

[seluecus]

I should clarify that when I mentioned Gaiman I was referring to the Sandman series, which I think does some interesting things with myth, and to his Good Omens. I haven't read American Gods or Anansi Boys.

Can you mention any examples of the Magic Latina stereotype? I'm curious which ones you have in mind.

[entelodont]

The most recent example I read was Charles DeLint's Forests of the Heart (It's worth noting that I got so pissed off I never finished it, so not all of this may apply). Basically, you have a young Latina woman with magic powers. She almost always has an elderly female mentor and they go bond in the desert or wherever, because they're naturally in tune with nature, much like stereotypes of indigenous Americans. They're also depicted cooking a lot of the time. Magical Latinas are usually fairly chaste, especially when compared to the Spicy Latina stereotype, but they may have their heart defrosted by some dashing renegade out of central casting. They speak a butchered version of Spanglish that bears no resemblance to how actual human beings talk, and are often incredibly pious, whether pagan or Catholic or somewhere in between. I find them unbearable, especially since they're pretty much the only type of Latina you find in mainstream fantasy. They're usually a good deal better when written by actual Latin@s (see The Hummingbird's

[emily_goddess]

Word. American Gods was appallingly light on indigenous religions and folklore. All that hullabaloo with the immigrant gods getting pushed out by the new ones, and not even a passing reference to Odin and Co. having done the same to the gods and godlike beings who were already here? Seems like a huge oversight to me.