Death Takes a Holiday
Just a list of things I've been thinking about since the new episode last night that I need to get out of my head before family obligations take me away from internet access for the weekend. You are now officially warned for spoilers:
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Talking to Sam worked in 4.09, when he told Sam he wasn't trying to pick a fight but to understand; Sam confided in him then. Just because it didn't magically fix everything the first time doesn't mean that Dean's only line of defense is to go all snarky, judgmental, and passive-aggressive, especially when it's this behavior that makes Sam more defensive.
Sam's word may have hurt Dean, but Dean's words hurt Sam just as much. Sam's fear from the very beginning of learning about his powers was that Dean would look at him differently, that he'd think he was something else other than his brother. Dean's always denied this, which made hearing it after showing up at their hotel room with the supernatural creature Dean wanted to replace him with extremely hurtful, siren's spell or not. Yes, Sam's lying and that's a bad thing that hurts Dean, but it's hard to blame him for not wanting to confide in someone who seems to think he's less than human.
I don't think Dean should have apologized first - just that Sam shouldn't be the only one expected to apologize.
... even as Sam's treating him more like a sidekick than a brother?
Dean's always treated Sam like a sidekick, from declaring (and implementing) the I'm-the-oldest-and-I-know-what's-best mentality, to stalling Sam's search for John and the YED in the first season even after he promised he'd help him find their dad, to keeping what John told him before dying from Sam for so long, to deciding to sell his soul even though Sam wouldn't want him to and Dean knew from firsthand experience just how hurtful that act could be, to brushing off Sam's desperation to save him for half a season, to ripping Sam's iPod out of the Impala when he gets back (thanks to nekosammy for pointing this out to me!). Sam's said several times he was trying to be more like Dean and, well, mirrors aren't always flattering...
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Oh, I totally agree, hence the huge list of things Dean attempted before this point in the earlier comment. 4x09 is not his first try at reconciliation, nor was it the last. It's true that Dean's behavior is making Sam more defensive, but is that really a bad thing? This method is at the very least spurring a reaction of some sort.
I do wish they would talk more openly and I loved that Sam opened up a touch in 4x09. I think the fact that he did coupled with Dean's talk with Anna was what gave him the strength to tell Sam some of the details about Hell in 4x10. They've got so much they need to go over and that neither of them seems to fully trust the other is just heartbreaking.
Sam's fear from the very beginning of learning about his powers was that Dean would look at him differently
Dean doesn't consider Sam less than human, but I'll admit that he's freaking out about Sam's powers and their implications. I'll even admit that Dean seems to be overreacting to them, based on what we've seen and how the story has gone. If Show did something to indicate that Dean's freak out was because he remembered how the other psychic kids went morally downhill as soon as they started using their powers or because being post-Hell, Dean has particular reason not to want to see his baby brother mixing it up with demonic abilities, I think people would have been more satisfied. As it was, Dean comes across as looking petty and small-minded, wanting to throw away a valuable weapon just because he doesn't like the origin and hypocritical at that, considering he has no issues using Ruby's knife.
I totally agree with why Sam would have issues opening up to Dean about using his powers. However, that said, it doesn't excuse Sam's lying about them, which started the same day he got Dean back from the dead and with a crack about Dean's "dying wish" even. That took it from an understandable reluctance to being beyond the pale.
I don't think Dean should have apologized first.
Agreed on that too. I'm not at all suggesting that they haven't done things to hurt each other. They both have things they need to do to work on building their relationship back up.
Dean's always treated Sam like a sidekick
Dean has never treated Sam like a sidekick but he has treated him as a younger sibling. Sidekick implies that he was calling the shots and didn't care what Sam's opinions were. If you look at their interactions in the first couple of seasons, there's no signs of that and often we got quite the opposite where Sam would make demands and expect Dean to just roll with them. I'm not faulting Sam for that; Sam is in many ways your bossy younger sibling - it's part of why I love him.
Dean took the lead in season one because he had far more experience but even in the pilot episode, Sam took command when they were looking up hits on violent deaths online; Dean was at the computer, trying things out, and Sam shoved him out of the way to take over (to Dean's muttered comment about Sam being a control freak, indicating that this was not unusual).
Dean only lied about what John said once, right after the man died, and immediately after telling, he begged Sam to stay with him while they figured it out. Sam agreed to this, only to up and vanish the next morning without telling Dean where he was going. Dean was trying to protect Sam from an awful truth. Sam's actions would have gotten him killed if Dean hadn't gotten there in the knick of time to knock Gordon's shot awry.
As for Dean's rejection of Sam's attempts to save him, keep in mind that the cost of Dean doing anything to "weasel out of the deal" would result in Sam's immediate death. However, Dean doesn't prevent Sam from working to save him; he just refused to do it himself.
Re: the iPod thing: I don't think Dean would have had such a problem with it if that sort of song hadn't been the first thing playing when they started up. His reaction was to that song, not to Sam's alteration of the Impala - he didn't remove the iPod until after he had heard the music selected after all.
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I'm not saying Sam is excused from lying or that Dean would think any less of him if he knew the truth, just that Sam's lies are coming from a place of insecurity and not malicious even if they are destructive. As for him lying the same day Dean got back, we have to remember that Sam didn't expect to be reunited with his formerly dead brother, let alone have to answer his questions about what he'd been up to in the past four months. His response kind of reminded me of a kid who tells his mother "nothing" after his mother asks what he's up to (when he's done something questionable) or how his day was (when it was particularly upsetting) - he didn't know quite how to respond so he avoided it. Again, not healthy or helpful but understandable.
Dean has never treated Sam like a sidekick but he has treated him as a younger sibling. Sidekick implies that he was calling the shots and didn't care what Sam's opinions were
But Dean did call the shots and didn't care what Sam's opinions were if they were in opposition to what he wanted, especially in the first season. Dean acted like Sam's life at school was a silly little game of make believe, making Sam insist on Dean taking him back after the job in Jericho was over; in the first two episodes after the pilot Dean shut down Sam when he got upset that they weren't searching for their father; Dean refused to go to Lawrence until Sam told him everything yet refused to address Sam's questions when they got the text to go to Roosevelt Asylum; and when, after six months of going along with what Dean wanted, Sam wanted to go find their father instead of heading off on the hunting trip their father ordered them on Dean called Sam selfish and implied that he was a bad son. Dean may be the older sibling, but he acted like he was a kid sidekick from an old comic book.
Dean only lied about what John said once, right after the man died...
And Sam only lied to Dean about using his powers when Dean asked him about them in the Impala when Dean first got back (at least until 4.15). Lies of omission are still lies, whether it's Sam not telling Dean about his powers or Dean not telling Sam about what John said. And one could also argue that Sam is protecting Dean from a "terrible truth" by lying to him; of course Sam is also lying because he doesn't want to tell Dean, but then again Dean also withheld the truth in part because he didn't want to tell Sam. Even if his intentions had been entirely selfless, he had no right to keep something from Sam when it affected Sam so directly and when Sam would have to find out about it sooner or later.
Whether lying about what John said or not helping to get out of his deal (yes, he didn't actively try to stop Sam, but he did try to prevent it through his passivity), Dean was deciding what was best for Sam without bothering to ask if Sam had something to say in the matter. While Sam taking off did lead to trouble (although I don't blame him for leaving; if I'd found out that the only family I had left had been keeping the fact that our father, whom I'd always felt thought I wasn't good enough and whom I was afraid thought I hated him when he died, thought I might become so evil that I would have to be killed I'd need a few days to clear my head too), it's hard to argue that Dean knew what was best for Sam when he made the deal. That deal destroyed Sam just as much as it destroyed Dean.
His reaction was to that song, not to Sam's alteration of the Impala - he didn't remove the iPod until after he had heard the music selected after all.
Maybe, but that's not the point. The point is that Dean didn't like the music so it had to go. It's been implied on a few occasions that Sam doesn't really care for Dean's music but he would never just chuck the cassettes because Dean would never allow it. If Dean doesn't like the music it's gone and it's just too damn bad if Sam doesn't agree.
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I've commented similarly in the past. I'm not saying I don't understand Sam's actions because I do, I can see where he's coming from and why he's made the choices he has. I just feel that he's wrong in having made them, and Sam being Sam and thus so wonderfully stubborn, the situation is going to have to become incredibly dire for him to recognize that he's made a mistake. I still maintain though that while I can understand why he would lie about his powers to Dean, adding in the comment about the dying wish takes it over the line - and that, imho, was inexcusable.
But Dean did call the shots and didn't care what Sam's opinions were if they were in opposition to what he wanted, especially in the first season.
I really disagree with your assessment here. Dean and Sam had different priorities in the pilot: Dean to find John, Sam to help out over the weekend, but be sure to be back by Monday. They did the job in Jericho but John wasn't found; Dean, to whom family is the top priority, didn't even consider at first that it wouldn't be the same for Sam, but when Sam asked to go back, he didn't complain, didn't badger, didn't do anything but shrug and turn the car around. He was obviously disappointed, but he wasn't harranging Sam to stay and I don't think we can slam him for that disappointment.
As for Lawrence, Dean had made a vow not to return and needed something important to make him break it. He followed Sam in Skin, if I remember correctly, it was Sam's plan in Asylum to go to Ellicot Jr., he backed Sam against John towards the end of the season, and I could continue - those are just the examples I've thought of right off the top of my head. Never once did he treat Sam like a sidekick.
It sounds to me that you're willing to look into the reasons Sam has for lying and doing morally questionable things in season four, but you're unwilling to look at the reasons Dean has for acting the way he does in season one. He does imply that Sam's being a poor son, it's true, but please keep in mind that family is Dean's top concern and he would do anything to keep Sam and John safe - something he's outright stated and then gone on to actually do. Sam continually rejects this philosophy while Dean gives literally everything of himself to try and live it. I'm not saying Sam is wrong to do so (Dean's self-sacrificing nature is more than a touch unhealthy), but this has always been one of the differences between the brothers. Sam is like John in terms of motivations; Dean has always had his own goals.
yes, he didn't actively try to stop Sam, but he did try to prevent it through his passivity
What else could he have done though? Any action on his part could have been taken as Dean trying to break the deal, and that would have resulted in Sam's immediate death. Dean's hands were completely tied, something Sam knew about, but instead of working with that constraint, instead was something he complained about. Dean would never have taken an action that could have resulted in Sam's death; even if Dean didn't want to die, he'd far sooner take that risk by doing nothing than ever see Sam be killed as a result of what Dean has done.
it's hard to argue that Dean knew what was best for Sam when he made the deal
I'm not followin your train of thought here. If it's that Dean's deal was with John, I'd argue he never actually made that deal - John just gave him an order. If anything, he made the deal with Sam, when Sam forced the promise out of him. If the deal was the one with the CRD, I'd argue Dean's perspective was that anything would be better for Sam than Sam being dead. It'll be interesting to have that mindset revisited - and whether Dean still agrees with that point of view. Somehow, post Hell, I'm thinking not.
Re: the music. Keep in mind the rules of the Impala - driver chooses the music. We don't see Dean complaining about the music when Sam drives and it's not like he threw the iPod away; he just tossed it in the back seat. He was the driver, he selected the music.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not saying it was okay for Sam to add that comment about the dying wish; I just think he wanted to end that conversation a.s.a.p. and said the first thing that came into his head. We've all said regrettable things in that kind of situation and I don't think anyone should be condemned for it.
It sounds to me that you're willing to look into the reasons Sam has for lying and doing morally questionable things in season four, but you're unwilling to look at the reasons Dean has for acting the way he does in season one.
I do understand why Dean acted the way he did in season one and I see things from both brothers' p.o.v.; I'm more defensive about Sam because there's a tendency out there to judge his behavior while excusing Dean when he behaves in a similar manner. Dean loves his brother and in the first season wanted to bring him back into the family, and was willing to listen when it came to cases; but it was clear that he expected to have the final say when John wasn't around and he did treat Sam like a kid rather than a partner a lot of the time. I don't condemn him for it, but I don't excuse it either; and while I don't excuse Sam's season four behavior, I think he deserves the same understanding Dean gets.
What else could he have done though? Any action on his part could have been taken as Dean trying to break the deal, and that would have resulted in Sam's immediate death. Dean's hands were completely tied, something Sam knew about, but instead of working with that constraint, instead was something he complained about.
He could have at least understood that Sam didn't want to see him dead any more than Dean wanted to see Sam dead. Instead, he decided that he was right, that was that, and Sam would get over his death. I think one of Sam's biggest issues was that Dean assumed it would be easier for Sam to lose him than it was for him to lose Sam and that he thought Sam wasn't supposed to do everything he could to protect his brother. Plus, given the constraints I don't see how Sam was supposed to work with them.
If the deal was the one with the CRD, I'd argue Dean's perspective was that anything would be better for Sam than Sam being dead.
I did meant this deal, and I'd argue that he made it because Dean couldn't deal with Sam dead. He knew the pain, anger, and guilt Sam would go through because he went through it himself because of John's deal but he chose to forget all the "what's dead should stay dead" and the fury in Crossroads Blues about the husband making a deal to save his wife's life (he couldn't stand to go on without her so he made it so she would have to go on without him) because he didn't want to go on without Sam. He even admitted it was a selfish thing to do. Again, I understand where he was coming from but the crossroads deal was far from selfless.
Keep in mind the rules of the Impala - driver chooses the music.
But we never hear Sam's music, even when he's the one driving. I understand this is probably a decision Kripke made because of his own musical preferences but it still feels like Dean's choice in music in what goes while Sam has to listen to his in a way that ensures that Dean doesn't have to hear it too.
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I'll give you that Dean treated Sam as a kid a lot of the time in S1, but I don't think of that in the same sense that I do a sidekick. Dean practically raised Sam, and as he says himself in the S2 finale, he had one job to do his whole life, and that was to keep Sam safe. Dean's slow recognition of the fact that Sam doesn't need him as a parental figure anymore is one of the joys I have in the show, especially since it will eventually have to lead into what Sam does need Dean for, since right now Dean seems to believe that if Sam doesn't need him as a protector, he doesn't need him at all. I don't fault Dean for giving everything to protect Sam (I think it's one of the best things about his character, no matter how unhealthy it is for himself), but nor do I at all fault Sam for chaffing at that protection and rejecting it because he is an adult now and no longer needs it.
while I don't excuse Sam's season four behavior, I think he deserves the same understanding Dean gets.
I adore Sam. Seriously, the amount of love I have for his character has grown in leaps and bounds this season. He really appeals to me now in a way he didn't in S1-3. Sam in this newer, darker persona is just fantastic (and hot) and I can't wait to see where he goes. I've got all sorts of sympathy for him as a character because while I can see the mistakes he's making and I can speculate on what their impact will be, Sam obviously thinks he's doing the right thing. It's fascinating to me the different opinions people can come up with on the same topic, even if both sides are starting with a mutual fondness for it. I know I've said it before, but I really am enjoying this thread - we definitely have a difference of opinion on several things, but it's really interesting to see what those differences are, and to be able to discuss them without wank.
I only tend to get annoyed in fandom discussions when people give undue consideration to one brother, while dismissing the effects that they've had on the other. (I get annoyed with Dean girls when they ignore the fact that Dean punched Sam twice when he found out that Sam lied to him in 4x04, I get equally annoyed when Sam girls say Dean has no reason to be snarky at Sam for lying to his face repeatedly in 4x15, et cetera). It's got to be balanced, you know?
Plus, given the constraints I don't see how Sam was supposed to work with them.
I think Sam could have done plenty to help Dean. Sam could have been researching with Bobby, he could have gone off on his own, he could have done any number of things. It's just that Dean couldn't be a part of them.
one of Sam's biggest issues was that Dean assumed it would be easier for Sam to lose him
Now, that is *definitely* true. However, it harkens back to the whole deal where Dean viewed himself as Sam's protector, never the opposite. If you want someone to blame for that, look at John, not Dean; Dean was raised with that prerogative since age four. Also, Dean really didn't believe he was worth what Sam was, nor that Sam needed him. We see that point get brought up again and again. Bobby looked incredulous when he demanded if Dean had that low an opinion of himself, but the truth was that Dean really did think exactly that. To me, it's not at all being selfish and wanting Sam to suffer like Dean had for John; it's that Dean never considered (literally couldn't consider) that his death would have the same impact on Sam.
Dean was, of course, completely wrong with this and it's a testament to exactly how screwed up he is that he thinks it. But he never wanted Sam to suffer; he really did think his brother would get over his death fairly quickly and go on to life a normal, happy life without him - and thus his sacrifice was worth it.
Dean's choice in music in what goes.
I get what you're saying, but I think you're reading too much into it. I love the concept of Sam blaring some "college emo crap" while driving and Dean groaning but putting up with it, probably while apologizing to the Impala for the indignity, no less.
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Dean treating Sam like a kid in S1 is part of the reason why I don't think Sam is treating Dean like a sidekick now. Sam's never seen his brother this broken before. He thinks Dean needs a protector, but that's a role Sam's completely unfamiliar with so he tries to imitate Dean, who always protected him. However, as it usually is when someone imitates someone else's behavior (especially when it's a behavior they resented), it's exaggerated. Sam's treatment of Dean in S4 is a mirror of Dean's in S1, but it's a fun-house mirror: the features are recognizable but distorted and unflattering.
I only tend to get annoyed in fandom discussions when people give undue consideration to one brother, while dismissing the effects that they've had on the other.
I totally agree, and that was at the heart of my complaint in point 1 of my list (although I know I didn't make it clear at all) - that if Sam had said something like that to Dean, the hardcore Dean girls would have been calling him evil-selfish-bad-unlikeable and demanding his head before the scene was over but since it was Dean saying it to Sam they'd think it was okay and even justified. I'm an unapologetic Sam girl, but I do adore Dean in a big-brother kind of way; most - if not all - of any frustrations I have with the character stem from the faction in fandom that seems to think he can do no wrong while Sam can do no right.
Bottom line: both boys are screwed up, both boys have their good points and their bad points, and Supernatural is ultimately the story of both of them because Sam's story doesn't make sense (or mean much) without Dean's and vice versa.
Sam could have been researching with Bobby, he could have gone off on his own, he could have done any number of things.
At the beginning of S3 Dean was too afraid of Sam dropping dead to look the other way while Sam messed with the deal in any way, even something like researching with Bobby. And Sam wouldn't have left his brother unless he thought it was a sure thing (like he did during Time is on My Side) because of that underlying fear that he wasn't going to succeed at saving him and his days with Dean were already limited.
...it's that Dean never considered (literally couldn't consider) that his death would have the same impact on Sam.
I definitely agree that Dean was driven by a low sense of self-worth, but I think Sam took it as Dean saying that Sam didn't love him as much as he loved Sam. Those boys miss each other by a mile; I spent much of S3 wanting to bind and gag them so I could yell: "He thinks he's worth nothing without you! And he thinks you feel he doesn't love you enough to make the same sacrifices you've made for him! Get your acts together!!
But he never wanted Sam to suffer
Oh, I've never thought Dean's intentions weren't good or that he wanted Sam to suffer in any way; I just think he also brought Sam back for himself, because he didn't want to live without him. To me, that little kernel of selfishness makes Dean more relatable - it shows he's not a just some self-sacrificing martyr but also someone who can act on something he wants for himself.
I get what you're saying, but I think you're reading too much into it.
I have no doubt I'm reading more into the music issue than intended :) I just have a tendency of focusing on little details sometimes. I actually think a great last scene of the series would be Sam in the driver's seat, hooking up his iPod. Dean complains, but Sam reminds him that driver picks the music, shotgun shuts his cake hole. Dean rolls his eyes and resigns himself to emo music; Sam grins and starts it up to reveal the song he chose is Back in Black (or Carry On, Wayward Son). Dean slowly grins and looks over at his brother, who's grinning back. Sam punches the gas and the last shot viewers see is the Impala driving off into the horizon.
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