Співпраця російських соціалістів із NAZI. WWII (Частина 1)
Трохи документальних фактів про тісну співпрацю комуністичного СРСР і націонал-соціалістичної Німеччини.
В 1939p. комуністичний СРСР
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В 1939p. комуністичний СРСР
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>> Even despite the fact that building and testing arms, was forbidden for Germany by the Treaty of Verseilles?
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Yes, forbidden for Germany. Not USSR. USSR, as I know, was not bound by Versailles treaty, it was not part of it.
>> That before NAZI came to power, Germany was developing its’ military power for 10 years already?
>> And if USSR wasn’t ignoring Treaty of Verseilles, Germany wouldn’t be so powerful in 1939?
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Right. Most probably whould not be so powerfull.
But please remember again that Weimar republic and Nazi Germany are two distinctivly different countries politicaly.
>> Cooperation stoped in 1933? Realy??
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Yes, really, the millitary cooperation you reffered to previously was stopped in 1933, IIRC.
>> And what about secret Ribbentrop-Molotov pact with signed dividing up Eastern Europe protocol?
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MRP is the product of 1939 and has little bearing to the Military cooperstion prior to 1933.
>> And what about parade on those pictures?
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Yes, the so called parade. IMHO, this is a silly point to keep talking about.
Objectively Germany and USSR were rivals/enemies in 1939. It is true that they made a deal but it was not the first time in history. It is very normal historical artefact. It does not mean it as morally justifiable.
I have seen those pictures. IMHO it is not very obvious that there was a parade where 2 forces were marching together. Maybe but there are also plenty questions can be asked.
The point is that even if there was a reall parade, it would not be a big deal concidering the scale of the rest of the events (invasion of Poland or reunification of the people if you wish :o) ).
>> p.s. How far could you go to justify Soviet regime?
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Are we trying to get personal, are not we? ;o)
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The Russians offered Germany facilities for building and testing these arms, forbidden by the Treaty of Verseilles, deep inside Russia, well away from inspectors' eyes
"...But please remember again that Weimar republic and Nazi Germany are two distinctivly different countries politicaly..."
Russia lead by Yeltsyn and Russia lead by Putin - are two different countries?
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Different political leadership doesn’t mean different countries.
"..MRP is the product of 1939 and has little bearing to the Military cooperstion prior to 1933...."
It shows that cooperation didn't stop in 1933.
"...Objectively Germany and USSR were rivals/enemies in 1939...'
Yep, you can almost feel hate in their ayes...
http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/0002wr52/
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"...The point is that even if there was a reall parade, it would not be a big deal concidering the scale of the rest of the events..."
The point is that two regimes are twins - NAZI Germany and USSR.
"How far could you go to justify Soviet regime?" was rhetorical question.
(;
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>> by the Treaty of Verseilles, deep inside Russia, well away from inspectors' eyes
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This is a well known fact.
But the last time I checked Russia/USSR was NOT one of the THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES. And Russia/USSR was NOT bound by The Treaty of Verseille. Germany was. Russia was NOT.
>> Russia lead by Yeltsyn and Russia lead by Putin - are two different countries? ((((((:
>> Different political leadership doesn’t mean different countries.
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Ohh, yes, it does! Especially it is true about Germany after 1933.
It is even true regarding the Yeltsin Russia vs. Putin Russia.
>> "..MRP is the product of 1939 and has little bearing to the Military cooperstion prior to 1933...."
>> It shows that cooperation didn't stop in 1933.
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Please, do not make things up just because they fit your perception of the history.
The MILITARY cooperation started Feb. 1923 and ended mid 1933. The trade continued (just like all other countries did).
>> Yep, you can almost feel hate in their ayes...
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And you wanted to see hatered in their eyes?
These are just simple soldiers - simple fellows. You must be kidding me if you clame that those smile proove anything.
>> The point is that two regimes are twins - NAZI Germany and USSR.
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Yes, TWINS is a perfect analogy. Seemingly the same yet very different!
Вот еще пост хороший на мой взгляд на эту тему: ailoyros: "...Твои заветы Гитлер нарушает чаще нас"
"Господи, вступися за Советы,
Упаси страну от высших рас,
Потому, что все Твои заветы
Гитлер нарушает чаще нас..."
Глазков, июнь 1941
P.S: Why do we keep speaking English?
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A secret annex signed on 29 July allowed Germany to train their military in Soviet territory, thus violating the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.
Why it was secret? Russia, as you said, had nothing to fear, because Russia wasn’t bound by The Treaty of Verseille.
And if you still think that there was nothing wrong with secretly helping Germany developing it’s military power, what was prohibited by the Threaty of Verseille, and to do it secretly for more than ten years, then well…. what can I say.... Some people think that Earth is flat and not ball-shaped and neverless happily live their lives.
"...Different political leadership means different countries..."
More than peculiar logic. That means that world history knows eight different countries: USSR under Lenin leadership (1) that has nothing in common with USSR under Stalin leadership (1) that has nothing in common with USSR under Brezhnev leadership (3) ,….., because they were totally different countries.
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"...Please, do not make things up just because they fit your perception of the history..."
Making things up???!!! Doesn't NAZI-USSR military cooperation on battlefields, when destroying Polish military power in 1939, count as military cooperation any more? Or may be it doesn't count as military cooperation for the sake of someone’s' perception of history.... (((:
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"...You must be kidding me if you clame that those smile proove anything...."
Well, people tend to see what they want to see, and if two twin regimes (NAZI Germany and USSR) after cooperation on battlefields, proudly parading together, for someone may look like enemies and not like allies, thanthen well…. what can I say....
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p.s. Можемо перейти на українську.
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>> territory, thus violating the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.
>> Why it was secret? Russia, as you said, had nothing to fear, because Russia wasn’t bound by The Treaty of Verseille.
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Get this: A side that had not signed an agreement can not possibly brake it!
Are you repulsed by the word "secret"? It was secret exactly because it was forbiden for GERMANY to do so. But it was not forbiden for RUSSIA because Russia was NOT part of the Versaille treaty.
It takes two to make an agrement. And as we know that: "Согласие есть продукт при полном непротивлении сторон", we can happily conclude that the desal was secret due to Germany's situation. LEt alone that these kind of agrements are normaly secret anyways.
These are elementary things, Dr.Watson.
>> And if you still think that there was nothing wrong with secretly helping Germany
>> developing it’s military power, what was prohibited by the Threaty of Verseille, and to do it secretly for more than ten years, then well…. what can I say....
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Why is it wrong? There must be a criteria in order to make judgement. What is yours?
As we could see breech of the Versaille treaty is NOT one of them.
>> ...because they were totally different countries. ((((((((:
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Peculiar logic, huh? So you claim that the political course of the country's leader have no influence on how we should judge the event?
>> Making things up???!!! Doesn't NAZI-USSR military cooperation on battlefields, when destroying Polish military power in 1939, count as military cooperation any
>> more? Or may be it doesn't count as military cooperation for the sake of someone’s' perception of history.... (((:
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You are perfectly aware that we talking about the military cooperation of 1923-1933. Not about 1939. Read once more your own words that I replied on.
Do not try to get away from the topic. Either you did not know that the military cooperation stoped in mid 1933 or you deliberately lied. Either way it does not look good.
I am fearing the later as the Wiki article that you quoted has clear indication that the military cooperation ended in 1933 after Hitler came to power.
>> Well, people tend to see what they want to see, and if two twin regimes (NAZI Germany and USSR) after cooperation on battlefields, proudly parading together, for
>> someone may look like enemies and not like allies, thanthen well…. what can I say....
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Yes, golden words. We see what we want. We even read selectivly that supports our point of view.
May I, please, ask you to post a link to the best, from your point of view, picture/video that proves that it was a mutual parade, i.e. something that supports Guderian's description and disproves the Krivoshein's .
Best regards
Igor
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If some person is restricted by French court from communicating with kids without adult supervision, because of child abuse (Germany restricted from developing it’s military power) but someone in Russia, knowing about restriction secretly allows that person to communicate with kids without adult supervision, because evidently he is not restricted from doing so by French court, and that leads to another child abuse (WWII in our case). I hope that this example makes picture of Russian and German cooperation with it’s secrecy more clear.
"... Peculiar logic, huh? ..."
Your logic is indeed peculiar because it’s you who claims that different leadership means different countries but not the same country with different leaders.
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"..You are perfectly aware that we talking about the military cooperation of 1923-1933...."
-First of all, if you don’t like something in wikipedia than you can change it, or I can change it for you.
Facts - something that you can’t change.
-Secondly, answer to yourself: does military alliance on a battlefields between two countries count as military cooperation.
-Thirdly, are talking about your claim that USSR and NAZI Germany military cooperation stopped in 1933.
I proved that it continued after 1933 with fact - military cooperation both on the battlefields and on the highest possible governing level in 1939.
And still, even after facts of military cooperation between two twin regimes - NAZI Germany and USSR what allied their military powers to destroy Poland, and still even after another facts - pictures where they proudly parading together, still, they look to you as enemies but not allies.
(((((:
That's what my rhetorical question was about: “How far could you go to justify Soviet regime?”
(;
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