Do you think you should have been accepted into the OTO as you were when you first began? Would you let in 'another you?'
I tend to think that the OTO is for the formation of people, not for the acceptance of the already perfect. I hope we look for potential.
For me, Thelema is about the liberation of ourselves and the world. Nothing in my initiations have made me think differently. Nothing in my initiations have made me think that I had to do things the same way as anyone else.
The OTO has provided me with sustenance and in return, I hope I've given something back. The EGC has not really resonated with me. The ritual hasn't given me what it promised. As a Scientific Illuminist, I just can't get down with that.
So what does a Thelemite like me do when someone says I'm not good enough to be in the OTO?
Re: A few questionsigniprimumFebruary 8 2006, 22:11:16 UTC
Bear in mind throughout this that I am approaching this subject as a concerned individual. I am not trying to beat my chest as some kind of authority, nor am I trying to drive any changes in any policies. To me, this is a cultural thing, and policy will never be able to touch it, which is one of the reasons I think it is such a problem for the future of OTO. Anyway, with that, I'll respond to your points
( ... )
Re: A few questionsgallows_brotherFebruary 8 2006, 22:49:20 UTC
Indeed.
The OTO as it is now isn't something I would have joined, I think. But I have the benefit/curse of nostalgia and I have seen the OTO change around me. When I joined it, we seemed to be on the same page. There was no mission statement that I had a problem with.
I'm still here in part because I don't think it will always be this way. That I will outlast it.
I still hope that the OTO can be what I liked about it. The place where I first tasted liberty. And the place that gave you the chance you needed too.
Re: A few questionsgallows_brotherFebruary 9 2006, 01:21:50 UTC
I was there. And I think that the Grand Lodge of the OTO is as influenced by SML now as SML is influenced by them. This IS the place where it all happens, then and now. Without us then, SML wouldn't be where it is today, which is, strangely, how I end up feeling left out.
A victim of success!
At this point, all I can do is laugh with a friendly and clever universe and smash the lamp, knowing that the light remains.
Re: A few questionsigniprimumFebruary 9 2006, 15:32:48 UTC
The OTO you have today is the Grand Lodge OTO. I think we were better off without it in many ways.
solis93, I have nothing but respect for the work you've done for OTO, and the work you do with OTK. However, I find this statement of yours bewildering and somewhat discouraging
( ... )
Re: A few questions, pt 1igniprimumFebruary 10 2006, 00:45:24 UTC
"a secret, magical organization..."
How is the OTO of today different from this statement, except that it is probably a little too public, and way too populist? We take the same initiations, and we have the same core documents. Wanting to keep the EGC free of fringe elements, and not yielding to the demands of the uncommitted that EGC support a more eclectic style of religion, is not infringing on anyone ability to live by their own law. It simply demands that they exercise the discipline not to bring their outside interests into the temple.
"...dedicated to the liberation of its members"Being rebellious does not liberate. It only binds one to the illusion that there is something to rebel against. Thelema is supposed to be about finding your Will and pursuing it with speed and grace. That cannot be done within an organization where every passing religious/philosophical/ideological fancy of every uncommitted member creates a new interpretation that the whole organization ends up having to deal with in some way
( ... )
Re: A few questions, pt 2igniprimumFebruary 10 2006, 00:48:04 UTC
"Noone was discounted because they were poor and couldn't contribute..."
That model can only support a very low ceiling of accomplishment. We are above that now, so we have to adopt a model that can support our present level of development. It is not new, as it is provided in our core documents, and material contribution is an integral and inextricable part of it. Nothing in the spirit of those documents says that we have to keep the bar as low as possible, so as to accommodate the weakest links, and that seems to be what your arguments have been supporting for years.
"A ritual is a different story..."
Why is a ritual a different story? If we are all supposed to take the same communion in the Temple, why can't we have the same religion in there as well? We are an organization whose Mission is to "effect and promote the doctrines and practices of the philosophical and religious system known as Thelema", not "whatever doctrines and practices any member cares to adopt or concoct, that are loosely referred to as Thelema"
Re: A few questions, pt 2igniprimumFebruary 10 2006, 02:02:27 UTC
I don't know where you got your info about me being a persona non grata, but if it is true, then the majority of the local community was in on the most protracted and well-conducted snow-job I've ever seen a group orchestrate. If so, kudos to them for doing such a great job. They tried to make me feel more welcome than I would have ever allowed myself to feel, because I didn't want my problems to have a negative impact on the community
( ... )
Do you think you should have been accepted into the OTO as you were when you first began? Would you let in 'another you?'
I tend to think that the OTO is for the formation of people, not for the acceptance of the already perfect. I hope we look for potential.
For me, Thelema is about the liberation of ourselves and the world. Nothing in my initiations have made me think differently. Nothing in my initiations have made me think that I had to do things the same way as anyone else.
The OTO has provided me with sustenance and in return, I hope I've given something back. The EGC has not really resonated with me. The ritual hasn't given me what it promised. As a Scientific Illuminist, I just can't get down with that.
So what does a Thelemite like me do when someone says I'm not good enough to be in the OTO?
Reply
Reply
The OTO as it is now isn't something I would have joined, I think. But I have the benefit/curse of nostalgia and I have seen the OTO change around me. When I joined it, we seemed to be on the same page. There was no mission statement that I had a problem with.
I'm still here in part because I don't think it will always be this way. That I will outlast it.
I still hope that the OTO can be what I liked about it. The place where I first tasted liberty. And the place that gave you the chance you needed too.
I'll quit when I've decided that that isn't so.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
A victim of success!
At this point, all I can do is laugh with a friendly and clever universe and smash the lamp, knowing that the light remains.
Reply
solis93, I have nothing but respect for the work you've done for OTO, and the work you do with OTK. However, I find this statement of yours bewildering and somewhat discouraging ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
How is the OTO of today different from this statement, except that it is probably a little too public, and way too populist? We take the same initiations, and we have the same core documents. Wanting to keep the EGC free of fringe elements, and not yielding to the demands of the uncommitted that EGC support a more eclectic style of religion, is not infringing on anyone ability to live by their own law. It simply demands that they exercise the discipline not to bring their outside interests into the temple.
"...dedicated to the liberation of its members"Being rebellious does not liberate. It only binds one to the illusion that there is something to rebel against. Thelema is supposed to be about finding your Will and pursuing it with speed and grace. That cannot be done within an organization where every passing religious/philosophical/ideological fancy of every uncommitted member creates a new interpretation that the whole organization ends up having to deal with in some way ( ... )
Reply
That model can only support a very low ceiling of accomplishment. We are above that now, so we have to adopt a model that can support our present level of development. It is not new, as it is provided in our core documents, and material contribution is an integral and inextricable part of it. Nothing in the spirit of those documents says that we have to keep the bar as low as possible, so as to accommodate the weakest links, and that seems to be what your arguments have been supporting for years.
"A ritual is a different story..."
Why is a ritual a different story? If we are all supposed to take the same communion in the Temple, why can't we have the same religion in there as well? We are an organization whose Mission is to "effect and promote the doctrines and practices of the philosophical and religious system known as Thelema", not "whatever doctrines and practices any member cares to adopt or concoct, that are loosely referred to as Thelema"
"You can't ( ... )
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(The comment has been removed)
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