(Untitled)

[hexiva]

Does anyone happen to know whether the Valeyard is stated as being from between the Doctor's twelfth regeneration and his final regeneration, whether it's between his twelfth incarnation and his final incarnation? 'Regeneration' makes more sense -- Time Lords have twelve selves (meaning that his twelfth incarnation will be his final incarnation)

Comments

[elliptic_eye]

Thirteen selves, twelve regenerations. Except that fandom often refers to a Time Lord's selves as "regenerations," and just now I can't recall if the show fell into the same habit.

Bah, I has mislaid my DVDs at the moment, and I can't recall the exact quote. IIRC, the line as broadcasted was something like "an amalgamation of the darkest sides of his nature somewhere between his twelfth and final regenerations." If the Master is referring to the actual process of regeneration, then-and he's not lying-then the Valeyard is some sort of weird construct made by… siphoning some essences off from a) the Doctor's thirteenth life or b) the last and fatal regeneration. The audio The Wormery treated the Valeyard as something the Doctor himself was afraid he'd become, and I've heard that a few novels operated on that premise, too.

But we don't really get a lot of clarification. Or explication. Or anything else. It is a Pip'n'Jane script.

Wiki sayeth:

In The Ultimate Foe, the Master appeared in the Matrix, revealing that it was possible to infiltrate it. Sabalom Glitz and the Doctor's future companion Melanie Bush were presented to the Court to rebut the Valeyard's accusations. It was then revealed that the Valeyard was, in fact, the Doctor himself - or rather, a distillation of the Doctor's evil side, a potential dark version who might exist around his twelfth and final incarnation. This concept is similar to the ethereal "Watcher" that manifested itself to bridge the gap between his fourth and fifth incarnations (Logopolis). However in the novelisation of the story the Master states "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation ... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration" implying that the Valeyard is the thirteenth incarnation of the Doctor. The Twin Dilemma revealed that Time Lords do have a thirteenth regeneration, but because there normally is not a fourteenth incarnation using this last regeneration is generally fatal for a Time Lord.

[hexiva]

Wikipedia treats the Valeyard as if he were the same sort of thing as the Watcher, which is where I got the idea that was what he was.

[scarfman]

He probably is, but there are distinct differences between the manifestation of the Watcher, or the Teacher's Cho Je, and of the Valeyard. Neither the Watcher nor Cho Je extended more than a few days backward from the regeneration that produced them, let alone six lives; and neither was only the regenerating Time Lord's dark side. I think the Valeyard has to have been proposefully created by someone, who would almost have to be a Time Lord(s), as a manipulation of the phenomenon which the Teacher called forth at will and which was called from the Doctor by the cosmic trauma surrounding the regeneration.

[scarfman]

Except that fandom often refers to a Time Lord's selves as "regenerations,"
So do Time Lords in-text, as far back as The Deadly Assassin. "Regeneration" is frequently used as a synonym for "incarnation"; I don't think that's proper English, but I take it as translation of Gallifreyan idiom.
It is a Pip'n'Jane script.
Episode 13 has Robert Holmes' name on it.
To respond to the original poster's question, I'm pretty sure that the Master says "between his twelfth and final regeneration" (emphasis mine).