trans inclusion at PantheaCon
There was kerfluffle at PantheaCon about trans inclusion. One response can be found at:
http://fruitofpain.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/in-response-to-the-lilith-rite-at-pantheacon/
I'm not focusing on the blog post but on two of the comments to the post.
Z. Budapest wrote:
This struggle has been going since the Women’s Mysteries first appeared. These individuals selfishly never think about the following: if women allow men to be incorporated into Dianic Mysteries,What will women own on their own? Nothing! Again! Transies who attack us only care about themselves.
We women need our own culture, our own resourcing, our own traditions.
You can tell these are men, They don’t care if women loose the Only tradition reclaimed after much research and practice ,the Dianic Tradition. Men simply want in. its their will. How dare us women not let them in and give away the ONLY spiritual home we have!
Men want to worship the Goddess? Why not put in the WORK and create your own trads. The order of ATTIS for example,(dormant since the 4rth century) used to be for trans gendered people, also the castrata, men who castrated themselves to be more like the Goddess.
Why are we the ONLY tradition they want? Go Gardnerian!Go Druid! Go Ecclectic!
Filled with women, and men. They would fit fine.
But if you claim to be one of us, you have to have sometimes in your life a womb, and overies and MOON bleed and not die.
Women are born not made by men on operating tables.
Kenaz Filan responded:
This comment ill suits your status as an Elder, a Witch, and one of the most important philosophers and thinkers in contemporary Feminism and Neopaganism. I urge you to consider the importance of your words, and to remember that there are sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, lovers and allies on both sides of this argument. If we must disagree, let us do so in a spirit of love. If there must be boundaries between us, let them be drawn in a spirit of cooperation.
I do not dispute the right of CAYA, or any other Dianic group, to define “Womyn” as they see fit. I accept your right to exclude me. Since I identify as third-gendered rather than female, I would never seek entry into your Mysteries. I also accept your right to exclude my transgendered sisters or anyone else whom I might identify as a woman. They are your Mysteries, and you are welcome to share them as you will. I respect your rights to association, belief and expression.
However, I also respect the right of my transgendered sisters to their identity - an identity for which they have suffered and for which they continue to suffer. I will speak out against discrimination and hatred when it is aimed at them, and I will encourage others to do so. If Dianic Wiccans wish to shut out transgendered women from public events held by Pantheacon (particularly if they do so with hateful remarks about “being made on operating tables” and the like), I would encourage the organizers of Pantheacon to withdraw their public support for those workshops and those rituals.
This would not stop Dianics from holding private ceremonies and rituals in their own suites, as many groups do. And just as the OTO or other lodges and orders can restrict events to members only, the Dianic groups would be free to open their doors to whomever they saw fit. This would strike me as an appropriate compromise which would at least go some way toward acknowledging everyone’s rights and feelings. (Granted, it’s sure to dissatisfy just about everyone on one level or another, but that’s the nature of compromise).
Edited to add:
http://nonfluffypagans.livejournal.com/902101.html?thread=28152021
Wherein someone points out that trans folk have also sometimes had a rough time in Wicca:
I would not dream for one second of telling someone who weathered the transformative process of realization, the physical hardships of change, the social punishment, and the hurtful behavior of people who claim kinship that they need to go form their own religion. If you are, you are. Proper persons properly prepared have no business being subjected to speculative armchair philosophy and ridiculous fallacies of false choices.
I comment:
Huzzah!
I was very fortunate in that, when *I* determined that I wasn't comfortable as either priestess or priest, my lady's response was: "Go find a third-gender deity and role, and bring it back to us." The message was not: "Go and do something on your own, since don't fit into our system." The message was: "We need to expand to include you fully, because we really mean perfect love and perfect trust."
So this is how we bless the cup:
(Priest:) As the athame is to the man,
(Priestess:) So the chalice is to the woman;
(All:) For there is no greater magic in all the world than that of a man and a woman joined together in love--
For all are joined by love herein.
Most of that is the blessing as my initiators received it from Franque and Tzip, but that last sentence is my coven's response to my gender: "For all are joined by love herein." I am more grateful than words can tell.
http://fruitofpain.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/in-response-to-the-lilith-rite-at-pantheacon/
I'm not focusing on the blog post but on two of the comments to the post.
Z. Budapest wrote:
This struggle has been going since the Women’s Mysteries first appeared. These individuals selfishly never think about the following: if women allow men to be incorporated into Dianic Mysteries,What will women own on their own? Nothing! Again! Transies who attack us only care about themselves.
We women need our own culture, our own resourcing, our own traditions.
You can tell these are men, They don’t care if women loose the Only tradition reclaimed after much research and practice ,the Dianic Tradition. Men simply want in. its their will. How dare us women not let them in and give away the ONLY spiritual home we have!
Men want to worship the Goddess? Why not put in the WORK and create your own trads. The order of ATTIS for example,(dormant since the 4rth century) used to be for trans gendered people, also the castrata, men who castrated themselves to be more like the Goddess.
Why are we the ONLY tradition they want? Go Gardnerian!Go Druid! Go Ecclectic!
Filled with women, and men. They would fit fine.
But if you claim to be one of us, you have to have sometimes in your life a womb, and overies and MOON bleed and not die.
Women are born not made by men on operating tables.
Kenaz Filan responded:
This comment ill suits your status as an Elder, a Witch, and one of the most important philosophers and thinkers in contemporary Feminism and Neopaganism. I urge you to consider the importance of your words, and to remember that there are sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, lovers and allies on both sides of this argument. If we must disagree, let us do so in a spirit of love. If there must be boundaries between us, let them be drawn in a spirit of cooperation.
I do not dispute the right of CAYA, or any other Dianic group, to define “Womyn” as they see fit. I accept your right to exclude me. Since I identify as third-gendered rather than female, I would never seek entry into your Mysteries. I also accept your right to exclude my transgendered sisters or anyone else whom I might identify as a woman. They are your Mysteries, and you are welcome to share them as you will. I respect your rights to association, belief and expression.
However, I also respect the right of my transgendered sisters to their identity - an identity for which they have suffered and for which they continue to suffer. I will speak out against discrimination and hatred when it is aimed at them, and I will encourage others to do so. If Dianic Wiccans wish to shut out transgendered women from public events held by Pantheacon (particularly if they do so with hateful remarks about “being made on operating tables” and the like), I would encourage the organizers of Pantheacon to withdraw their public support for those workshops and those rituals.
This would not stop Dianics from holding private ceremonies and rituals in their own suites, as many groups do. And just as the OTO or other lodges and orders can restrict events to members only, the Dianic groups would be free to open their doors to whomever they saw fit. This would strike me as an appropriate compromise which would at least go some way toward acknowledging everyone’s rights and feelings. (Granted, it’s sure to dissatisfy just about everyone on one level or another, but that’s the nature of compromise).
Edited to add:
http://nonfluffypagans.livejournal.com/902101.html?thread=28152021
Wherein someone points out that trans folk have also sometimes had a rough time in Wicca:
I would not dream for one second of telling someone who weathered the transformative process of realization, the physical hardships of change, the social punishment, and the hurtful behavior of people who claim kinship that they need to go form their own religion. If you are, you are. Proper persons properly prepared have no business being subjected to speculative armchair philosophy and ridiculous fallacies of false choices.
I comment:
Huzzah!
I was very fortunate in that, when *I* determined that I wasn't comfortable as either priestess or priest, my lady's response was: "Go find a third-gender deity and role, and bring it back to us." The message was not: "Go and do something on your own, since don't fit into our system." The message was: "We need to expand to include you fully, because we really mean perfect love and perfect trust."
So this is how we bless the cup:
(Priest:) As the athame is to the man,
(Priestess:) So the chalice is to the woman;
(All:) For there is no greater magic in all the world than that of a man and a woman joined together in love--
For all are joined by love herein.
Most of that is the blessing as my initiators received it from Franque and Tzip, but that last sentence is my coven's response to my gender: "For all are joined by love herein." I am more grateful than words can tell.