2) Not Chouza, he's on the field in the same army as Chouji. And I don't think we know anything for sure. We saw them making serious faces, and we saw their children look sad. At this point, I'm completely indifferent to the deaths. It's like, what, so NOW you remember that people actually DIE in a war, Kishimoto? Oh, wait, no, they only die so that your most important characters can get motivated by it. Meh. Oh, and Shikamaru is an ass. (Which is in character alright, he never dealt with stress or emotional investment well, and it is a very male thing to do, but still. An ass is an ass.) Don't take out your stress on Ino, she just lost her dad too, you jerk.
3) Honestly, Neji's death is so full of shit, in my opinion. It comes suddenly, in a war in which almost nobody we cared for had died before, and it really, really feels like he dies just to motivate Naruto (and possibly Hinata). Which. Uh. Also, haha "OH DAD I KNOW HOW GREAT IT MUST HAVE FELT TO SACRIFICE YOURSELF FOR YOUR FRIENDS NOW :DDDDDD" WHAT THE HELL Seriously, I never bought the "he died willingly" part - the main branch had a damocles sword over Neji's dad's head, he never had any choice in the matter! He could tell himself he chose, but he didn't have a choice.
I disagree about him "being released from the seal". He accepted it and did exactly what the seal was here to force him to do. Resignation is not freedom, it means that even you consider yourself a slave. It is the ultimate loss. Then again, I guess I'm having a western perspective on this? I don't know, I just find it sickening.
But well, I guess liking Neji's death is better for you, since he was one of your favorites and all. D:>
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the chapter. Thank you for that clarification though. See, I thought that Chouza wasn't there. The wording of the translation I read was a little confusing though.
It is too bad that you didn't feel the deaths were very well done. It is not perfect- I readily admit that Kishimoto is not a master of finess and that the deaths that get attention are the ones that will be more emotionally connected to his characters (and hence to his audience/readers). He's also writing for primary aged school kids who's understanding of subtly is not that great. I say that as a teacher who works with primary aged students. Still, I've never really read Naruto for its subtly or realistic war scenes. That is probably frustrating if that's what you want from the story. It can be fun to play with the Naruto world in fandom as if there is subtly and real war scenarios (my stories often play with those ideas too), but in canon, I just cannot see either happening. Not when you consider who the audience is.
As for Neji's death being unexpected- perhaps it is. And surely his death was meant to motivate both Naruto and Hinata. I'm not arguing that. This world/story revolves around Narto. Still, I personally felt that in addition to that, his death also reiterated his personal story arc, and reflected his relationship with both Naruto and Hinata. Maybe it stood out even more to me that way because someone had recently pointed out that the Naruto spin-off, Rock Lee's Spring of Youth, had recently had a scene where Neji talks about his reaction to the revelation about his dad's death, which, at the time, Naruto Manga hadn't had yet.
As for Hizashi's death, it is true that there was not much choice- either he or his brother must die or the Leaf will be forced to go to war. All those are horrible choices- though Hiashi actually does argue that Hizashi shouldn't have to. Still, I guess I've always felt that part of his choice was also emotional- a viewpoint on how to evaluate his actions. A more Man versus self conflict resolution.
Neji is a different case in that he clearly does have a choice in whether he wants to jump in front of those two, though. Neither the main house nor the seal are making him do that. His sacrifice (and Asuma's last words, and Hinata's confession, and, more recently, Inoichi and Shikaku's deaths) are supposed to reiterate that idea that it is good to have bonds so deep you would die before watching that other person be killed. Milage may vary on whether you think it was a successful theme or not.
With regard to what I said about the seal, perhaps I'm stretching the symbolism. You're right- on one level the seal erasing is because it's doing that thing that makes the eyes unusable or whatever. But I also find it interesting, symbolically, that in making his own choice- to protect Naruto and Hinata- the seal disappears.
Lastly, while I always enjoy discussions with you, even when one (or both) of us is disappointed in the manga, I've begun to feel uncomfortable with the amount of cursing and abrasive language in the replies on my comment thread. Would it be possible to tone that down? Thank you :)
Naruto is a shounen manga, right? I thought the typical target of shounen mangas was 12 to 16 year old boys...? And I'm not really asking for subtlety at this point. I mean, I don't think it's a subtle message: "this is a war, war is a cruel things where many people, good or bad, die".
Also, mostly I'm annoyed because when I go back to the beginning of the Naruto series, the deaths and acknowledging that the ninja world is cruel and violent and treats people as expendable tools was there. Like, remember Haku and Zabuza? There's a whole passage where Haku explains how he was a tool to Zabuza, and Zabuza himself was a tool to their client, because this is the way of the shinobi world. And Sakura has a scene where she cries and says that she had learned all the ninja rules, including the one forbidding her to cry. And then Haku dies with Kakashi piercing his heart. And Zabuza dies too, killing his client. And we cared for these characters, we had been made to see them as humans. And just after that, we had the exam. Where teenagers have to sign papers about their deaths. Where we see quite a few dying gruesomely. Where it might be hinted that many more die. And then we're told that "this is a smaller scale war for the countries of the alliance". And Orochimaru's raid was actually pretty well done, as a war thing. Maybe not in terms of important people dying, but the motivations of each village were interesting. Orochimaru has minions, but they were human, and Suna actually had political reasons to view Konoha as enemies, which Kishimoto managed to make logical, believable and not very complicated. (Having Baki explain them to his students worked wonders here, because the students were the same age as the audience, and the level of explanations were therefore suited to the audience.) So I'm not quite convinced by the "this is for kids" argument. Because, I don't think the beginning definitely is for kids. And I'm not comfortable with the idea of making the end for kids, because it sort of implies the author/editor/whomever approves of kids reading the beginning. Plus I'm disappointed because Kishimoto already demonstrated that he can write war much, much better than that. In my opinion, at least? Same goes for believable politics, or having the death of characters meaning something to them that doesn't feel rushed and an excuse for the hero to freak out.
I'm sorry, I tend to curse a lot, especially in English. I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. I'll try to tone it down.
I guess I thought Naruto was aimed at 9-14 year old boys, which to me are still not readers where for subtly. To clarify, the ages don't mean that I don't think he'll tone down the violence, just that he won't be all that subtle about his themes. None of the examples above stuck me as particularly subtle either, but then, milage varies. Each person will have different reading expeirnces, and there's not much that changes that.
At this point, I'm completely indifferent to the deaths. It's like, what, so NOW you remember that people actually DIE in a war, Kishimoto? Oh, wait, no, they only die so that your most important characters can get motivated by it. Meh.
Oh, and Shikamaru is an ass. (Which is in character alright, he never dealt with stress or emotional investment well, and it is a very male thing to do, but still. An ass is an ass.) Don't take out your stress on Ino, she just lost her dad too, you jerk.
3) Honestly, Neji's death is so full of shit, in my opinion.
It comes suddenly, in a war in which almost nobody we cared for had died before, and it really, really feels like he dies just to motivate Naruto (and possibly Hinata). Which. Uh.
Also, haha "OH DAD I KNOW HOW GREAT IT MUST HAVE FELT TO SACRIFICE YOURSELF FOR YOUR FRIENDS NOW :DDDDDD"
WHAT THE HELL
Seriously, I never bought the "he died willingly" part - the main branch had a damocles sword over Neji's dad's head, he never had any choice in the matter! He could tell himself he chose, but he didn't have a choice.
I disagree about him "being released from the seal".
He accepted it and did exactly what the seal was here to force him to do. Resignation is not freedom, it means that even you consider yourself a slave. It is the ultimate loss.
Then again, I guess I'm having a western perspective on this? I don't know, I just find it sickening.
But well, I guess liking Neji's death is better for you, since he was one of your favorites and all. D:>
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I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the chapter. Thank you for that clarification though. See, I thought that Chouza wasn't there. The wording of the translation I read was a little confusing though.
It is too bad that you didn't feel the deaths were very well done. It is not perfect- I readily admit that Kishimoto is not a master of finess and that the deaths that get attention are the ones that will be more emotionally connected to his characters (and hence to his audience/readers). He's also writing for primary aged school kids who's understanding of subtly is not that great. I say that as a teacher who works with primary aged students. Still, I've never really read Naruto for its subtly or realistic war scenes. That is probably frustrating if that's what you want from the story. It can be fun to play with the Naruto world in fandom as if there is subtly and real war scenarios (my stories often play with those ideas too), but in canon, I just cannot see either happening. Not when you consider who the audience is.
As for Neji's death being unexpected- perhaps it is. And surely his death was meant to motivate both Naruto and Hinata. I'm not arguing that. This world/story revolves around Narto. Still, I personally felt that in addition to that, his death also reiterated his personal story arc, and reflected his relationship with both Naruto and Hinata. Maybe it stood out even more to me that way because someone had recently pointed out that the Naruto spin-off, Rock Lee's Spring of Youth, had recently had a scene where Neji talks about his reaction to the revelation about his dad's death, which, at the time, Naruto Manga hadn't had yet.
As for Hizashi's death, it is true that there was not much choice- either he or his brother must die or the Leaf will be forced to go to war. All those are horrible choices- though Hiashi actually does argue that Hizashi shouldn't have to. Still, I guess I've always felt that part of his choice was also emotional- a viewpoint on how to evaluate his actions. A more Man versus self conflict resolution.
Neji is a different case in that he clearly does have a choice in whether he wants to jump in front of those two, though. Neither the main house nor the seal are making him do that. His sacrifice (and Asuma's last words, and Hinata's confession, and, more recently, Inoichi and Shikaku's deaths) are supposed to reiterate that idea that it is good to have bonds so deep you would die before watching that other person be killed. Milage may vary on whether you think it was a successful theme or not.
With regard to what I said about the seal, perhaps I'm stretching the symbolism. You're right- on one level the seal erasing is because it's doing that thing that makes the eyes unusable or whatever. But I also find it interesting, symbolically, that in making his own choice- to protect Naruto and Hinata- the seal disappears.
Lastly, while I always enjoy discussions with you, even when one (or both) of us is disappointed in the manga, I've begun to feel uncomfortable with the amount of cursing and abrasive language in the replies on my comment thread. Would it be possible to tone that down? Thank you :)
Reply
And I'm not really asking for subtlety at this point. I mean, I don't think it's a subtle message: "this is a war, war is a cruel things where many people, good or bad, die".
Also, mostly I'm annoyed because when I go back to the beginning of the Naruto series, the deaths and acknowledging that the ninja world is cruel and violent and treats people as expendable tools was there.
Like, remember Haku and Zabuza? There's a whole passage where Haku explains how he was a tool to Zabuza, and Zabuza himself was a tool to their client, because this is the way of the shinobi world. And Sakura has a scene where she cries and says that she had learned all the ninja rules, including the one forbidding her to cry. And then Haku dies with Kakashi piercing his heart. And Zabuza dies too, killing his client. And we cared for these characters, we had been made to see them as humans.
And just after that, we had the exam. Where teenagers have to sign papers about their deaths. Where we see quite a few dying gruesomely. Where it might be hinted that many more die. And then we're told that "this is a smaller scale war for the countries of the alliance".
And Orochimaru's raid was actually pretty well done, as a war thing. Maybe not in terms of important people dying, but the motivations of each village were interesting. Orochimaru has minions, but they were human, and Suna actually had political reasons to view Konoha as enemies, which Kishimoto managed to make logical, believable and not very complicated. (Having Baki explain them to his students worked wonders here, because the students were the same age as the audience, and the level of explanations were therefore suited to the audience.)
So I'm not quite convinced by the "this is for kids" argument. Because, I don't think the beginning definitely is for kids. And I'm not comfortable with the idea of making the end for kids, because it sort of implies the author/editor/whomever approves of kids reading the beginning.
Plus I'm disappointed because Kishimoto already demonstrated that he can write war much, much better than that. In my opinion, at least? Same goes for believable politics, or having the death of characters meaning something to them that doesn't feel rushed and an excuse for the hero to freak out.
I'm sorry, I tend to curse a lot, especially in English. I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. I'll try to tone it down.
Reply
I guess I thought Naruto was aimed at 9-14 year old boys, which to me are still not readers where for subtly. To clarify, the ages don't mean that I don't think he'll tone down the violence, just that he won't be all that subtle about his themes. None of the examples above stuck me as particularly subtle either, but then, milage varies. Each person will have different reading expeirnces, and there's not much that changes that.
I do agree that he has done better war scenes.
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