@ols - I DID enjoy it. I am a terrible victim of hype, I end up expecting too much and I'm fairly certain that the hype was, as david says, from viewers and critics, not friends. Garry and I had independently picked up the idea that it was a plot-twist movie, probably because (as again david says) it was meant to be complex and confusing, but the central concept was actually, for sci-fi fans, a familiar one, and not really hard to grasp. (I think that's part of why I felt short-changed. I *wanted* to have to use my briain, to not properly understand it until a second viewing!)
I personally am on the fence about ambiguity. In some films - pan's labyrinth comes to mind - it works beautifully, and the film would be made less by resolution. In the tv show 'lost', in contrast, it made us want to throw things at the screen. If I'd known this one was going to be ambiguous I might have forgiven it more, but one of the things I'd picked up from reviews was 'don't worry, it all gets explained!' Which, having spent a lot of the film debating which reality\dream they were in, I was looking forward to, as well as the denouement.
Of course, the hype and misperceptions are not the film's fault. In typcal me-manner, I completely failed to notice things like the use of music, the lighting, beautiful visuals etc, chiefly because those aren't things that impact on enjoyment one way or another for me, so I literally just don't notice them.
One thing that Garry and I were arguing about after we went to bed was the use of the totems. The spinning top was obviously a Big Clue, but for me, tyhere's a plot thing that doesn't work. Someone please tell me what I have missed! 1. The totems work because only the person who made them knows them inside out; specifically, exactly how they work (e.g. a loaded die). They're a way of ensuring that you're a)in reality, b) not in someone else's dream, where they're manipulating the environment - because no-one can get YOUR totem exactly right 2. Leo's totem was a spinning top. SOmething about the way it spins tells him he's in reality, or in control of the dream, or...whatever. (Not sure how this works when Ellen Page is controlling the environment, but someone will explain it to me and it's not a central part of my problem.) 3. We find out that in fact this spnning top is his ?dead? wife's totem. She locked it away when they were stuck in Limbo because she didn't want to be remionded that this was a dream. (Not sure how a totem that's meant to tell you you're in reality or your OWN dream does this, but as a plot twist, who cares) 4. He then nicked it, to remind her that she was in a dream 5. He then kept it and it became his totem
My problem with it is...how does that work? If it's hers, he shouldn't know exactly how it works. So either it's HER totem still, and the entire film is her dream. Meaning she's still alive. But if she's stil alive, she's surely awake - by killing herself again (presumably again and again), she eventually woke up. So if she's awake, how is this her *dream*? The idea just doesn't work.
Or she's really dead. In which case, the totem is his, and works exactly as we've been told it does. By having it, he is ensuring that he's not in someone else's dream. Ergo, everything is exactly as it asppears on the surface; he's in reality and there is no ambiguity.
What did I miss? I'm sure the spinning top is key, they spent enough time foreshadowing with it. Maybe he's stuck in his OWN dream, in which case the spinning top is a total red herring and irrelevant, as it gives you no pertinent information...?
Anyways, onwards!
Rose totally did not win in Silent Hill. She got a draw at best :-) That said, THERE'S an ambiguous ending that worked really well. IMHO. :-) Oh, and Silent Hill 2 is out around my brithday next near, my excitement is being matched only by my mental preparations for terrible disasspointment.
Nothing can mar the festive occasion that is Mega Shark Versus Crocosaurus though!
Ols, I miss you. Come and visit me. Or invite me over.
I also think that the 'Limbo' stage is different from the other dreams, it is a shared state/ares, anyone can manipulate it (both Cobb and Mal do) Hence the Top not spinning properly ie spinning for eve, when they are limbo.
I took the fact that he uses he wifes totem two ways. 1) he has played with it so much he understands how it work (this is reliant on them being in relatity) and 2) he uses is instead of his own for the same reason she locked it away, he dosn't want to know what is real or not any more.
I think if you are in a dream when you are the architect you can alter things so easily it's obvious it's not reality, if you are in someone elses dream, as you said, they can't get it right so you can check.
Also (and i've not seen it since the cinema so ignor me if i'm wrong, it's one of the things I want to re watch it for) Cobb's home and kids are always the same, in his memories and dreams, in limbo, at the end..... shouldn't things have changed?
I seem to remember thinking that the wobble at the end was not definitive but I can't remember why, I have two things in my head either at one point when they show the spinning top before the end it wobbles but recoveres or you hear it recover after the picture cuts out but the audio contunies. Could be completely wrong.
Another interesting point is did they get Saito out, if they fail Cobb goes to jail, he may choose to stay in a limbo creation of the world with imaginary kids rather than return to the real world and never see them again. An extention of that is 'does anyone get out of limbo?' or is the whole thing set there?.
Silent hill - Ah you see I think that from Rose's perspective she has won, she gets her daughter, though her being possessed was probably not part of tehe plan ;-). She dosn't appear to care about not being able to see / talk to her husband, even on the phone, or that there is no one else about after they leave, she got her 'daughter' and that's all that is important to her.
I personally am on the fence about ambiguity. In some films - pan's labyrinth comes to mind - it works beautifully, and the film would be made less by resolution. In the tv show 'lost', in contrast, it made us want to throw things at the screen. If I'd known this one was going to be ambiguous I might have forgiven it more, but one of the things I'd picked up from reviews was 'don't worry, it all gets explained!' Which, having spent a lot of the film debating which reality\dream they were in, I was looking forward to, as well as the denouement.
Of course, the hype and misperceptions are not the film's fault. In typcal me-manner, I completely failed to notice things like the use of music, the lighting, beautiful visuals etc, chiefly because those aren't things that impact on enjoyment one way or another for me, so I literally just don't notice them.
One thing that Garry and I were arguing about after we went to bed was the use of the totems. The spinning top was obviously a Big Clue, but for me, tyhere's a plot thing that doesn't work. Someone please tell me what I have missed!
1. The totems work because only the person who made them knows them inside out; specifically, exactly how they work (e.g. a loaded die). They're a way of ensuring that you're a)in reality, b) not in someone else's dream, where they're manipulating the environment - because no-one can get YOUR totem exactly right
2. Leo's totem was a spinning top. SOmething about the way it spins tells him he's in reality, or in control of the dream, or...whatever. (Not sure how this works when Ellen Page is controlling the environment, but someone will explain it to me and it's not a central part of my problem.)
3. We find out that in fact this spnning top is his ?dead? wife's totem. She locked it away when they were stuck in Limbo because she didn't want to be remionded that this was a dream. (Not sure how a totem that's meant to tell you you're in reality or your OWN dream does this, but as a plot twist, who cares)
4. He then nicked it, to remind her that she was in a dream
5. He then kept it and it became his totem
My problem with it is...how does that work? If it's hers, he shouldn't know exactly how it works. So either it's HER totem still, and the entire film is her dream. Meaning she's still alive. But if she's stil alive, she's surely awake - by killing herself again (presumably again and again), she eventually woke up. So if she's awake, how is this her *dream*? The idea just doesn't work.
Or she's really dead. In which case, the totem is his, and works exactly as we've been told it does. By having it, he is ensuring that he's not in someone else's dream. Ergo, everything is exactly as it asppears on the surface; he's in reality and there is no ambiguity.
What did I miss? I'm sure the spinning top is key, they spent enough time foreshadowing with it. Maybe he's stuck in his OWN dream, in which case the spinning top is a total red herring and irrelevant, as it gives you no pertinent information...?
Anyways, onwards!
Rose totally did not win in Silent Hill. She got a draw at best :-) That said, THERE'S an ambiguous ending that worked really well. IMHO. :-) Oh, and Silent Hill 2 is out around my brithday next near, my excitement is being matched only by my mental preparations for terrible disasspointment.
Nothing can mar the festive occasion that is Mega Shark Versus Crocosaurus though!
Ols, I miss you. Come and visit me. Or invite me over.
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Sent you an email earlier about possible dates to get together, when you are able to check your calender let me know what works.
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I took the fact that he uses he wifes totem two ways. 1) he has played with it so much he understands how it work (this is reliant on them being in relatity) and 2) he uses is instead of his own for the same reason she locked it away, he dosn't want to know what is real or not any more.
I think if you are in a dream when you are the architect you can alter things so easily it's obvious it's not reality, if you are in someone elses dream, as you said, they can't get it right so you can check.
Also (and i've not seen it since the cinema so ignor me if i'm wrong, it's one of the things I want to re watch it for) Cobb's home and kids are always the same, in his memories and dreams, in limbo, at the end..... shouldn't things have changed?
I seem to remember thinking that the wobble at the end was not definitive but I can't remember why, I have two things in my head either at one point when they show the spinning top before the end it wobbles but recoveres or you hear it recover after the picture cuts out but the audio contunies. Could be completely wrong.
Another interesting point is did they get Saito out, if they fail Cobb goes to jail, he may choose to stay in a limbo creation of the world with imaginary kids rather than return to the real world and never see them again. An extention of that is 'does anyone get out of limbo?' or is the whole thing set there?.
Silent hill - Ah you see I think that from Rose's perspective she has won, she gets her daughter, though her being possessed was probably not part of tehe plan ;-). She dosn't appear to care about not being able to see / talk to her husband, even on the phone, or that there is no one else about after they leave, she got her 'daughter' and that's all that is important to her.
Silent Hill 2 - I hadn't heard
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