helpful hint for the colorblind: BE LESS BLIND

[hth_the_first]

I think I'll quote somebody out of context, because that's always worked really well for me in the past.

Saying "black characters are written too broadly in New Who, making them resemble stereotypes" rather ignores the fact that white characters are treated the same way.Look. This is the problem with trying to raise white people on Sesame Street

Comments

[liviapenn]

Oh god, SO MUCH agreed

[hth_the_first]

The trouble with "colorblind casting" (or genderblind, for that matter) is that it doesn't apply to the leads. It just doesn't.

I've heard it said that before they decided to import the McKay character from SG1, the chief scientist on SGA was written as a Dr. Ingram, and the intent was to cast an African-American actor. I really, really wonder what the fandom would look like if that had actually happened. I want to travel to the alternate universe where it did, just to see!

It's like, ok, suppose you have a 22-episode season and just *coincidentally*, whenever there's a need for an admirable, kickass, brave, self-sacrificing, heroic character, the best actor for the part is a blue-eyed blond, and also completely randomly, there are three or four parts for "thuggish animalistic rapist" and the best actor for the part in each case is black.Right, but I'm thinking more of -- I guess a more genuine kind of lazy foolishness, which is what I see in a lot of the Dr. Who debates. It seems like a lot of the defense that's been going

[liviapenn]

I really, really wonder what the fandom would look like if that had actually happened. I want to travel to the alternate universe where it did, just to see!

Yeah. Presumably, they'd have cast a cute, young white guy as Ford, right? And then... well.

Actually, on SV, they originally wanted to cast a black actress as Chloe, but then when they found Allison Mack, they switched the "black character" slot over to Pete. I always wondered what the *show* would have been like if they'd gone with their original thought.

well, what if the actress just didn't happen to be black?*nodding* Right, totally. It's like saying, "Well, we killed Tara, and people are complaining because, hey, Tragic Lesbians, but what if she wasn't a lesbian?" That's missing the fact that Tara's death isn't JUST about Tara, it's about the fact that just once, just ONCE, it would be nice to have lesbians who weren't inevitably Tragic Lesbians, and you had the *opportunity* to do it better than it had been done in the past, and you didn't

[kaethe]

Found via

[hth_the_first]

I see what you're trying to say, and why it sounds fair at first glance -- just always hire the best person! Problem solved! It *does* sound fair and good

[kaethe]

*nods* I see what you're saying. It still sucks for Freema because she'd still be losing a job for racial reasons; in a better world, that wouldn't have to happen. But there are (I would assume) more jobs out there for her that might not come with the baggage this one did. It kind of seems like a "lesser of two evils" situation, but I suppose that's the world we live in.

And? I think your idea for a male companion would have been fabulous; it would have adjusted the dynamic in interesting ways. Too bad TPTB didn't think of that.

[snorkackcatcher]

I do think that they problematized the arc and angered a ton of their fans by making Ten look like a racist asshole who expects his black companion's life to revolve around him for no real reward, when he doesn't appear ever to have treated any of his white companions that way.

Actually, in the old-school Who I'm familiar with he pretty often treated companions in exactly the same way -- for example with Three and Jo, or Three and Four with Sarah Jane, and especially Four with 'noble savage' Leela (a clear example of your point about the difference between a white and black actress in a role). And come to think of it, Four's treatment of Harry Sullivan is pretty much a Captain Mainwaring-like 'stupid boy!', comparable to Mickey, even though Harry too is a (white) doctor.

That being said, there's a fine line when trying to write CoC with more sensitivity to racial issues -- it's very, very easy to tip over into writing stereotypes. If we want things to change with regard to portrayals of those characters, then at some point they have

[hth_the_first]

I appreciate hearing that perspective! I have no experience with Non-New Who (*g*), so I'm dependent on other fans to tell me how the Doctor(s) used to behave. Of course, other fans don't always agree with each other on that subject, which makes it all a little heady

[snorkackcatcher]

I'm always puzzled that white writers so often treat characters/people of color as if they are Utterly Inscrutable Forever and Ever

I agree, although I think that applies to any characters who don't have your own experiences (i.e. most of them, really). I suppose I personally have a tendency to wing it, although since I write in Harry Potter fandom I can get away with it to a certain extent because that posits a world where the wizard characters really are 'colourblind', but have a fully-functioning equivalent prejudice about magical blood.

(Mind you, I'd like to see a story which dealt with the probably different reaction of 'Muggle-born' students to racial differences -- I can't off-hand think of one. If I get round to writing one of the Dean Thomas stories I had in mind -- and I'm waiting for the last book before doing any more! -- I should probably incorporate that theme.)

As for Who, I think the clunky bits are more to do with Martha's family than Martha herself. Martha's cool.

[ivvydolamroth]

I know I'm late to the party but speaking of Leela, did you know that she was originally supposed to be darker skinned? There are early publicity photos of Louise Jameson painted light brown, to go along with the "noble savage" schtick. They also had her wear red contacts to make her blue eyes appear brown.

To put this in context, at the same time, the BBC was also running the Black and White Minstrel Show, which featured white performers in black face singing stuff like Camptown Races. It boggles the mind.

I don't know why the Beeb changed their mind in regard to Leela. They kept the contacts for a few episodes, but they were causing her problems so Terrance Dicks wrote an in story explanation to get rid of them.

Leela's run on Doctor Who also saw the production of the Talons of Wang-Chiang, a story that featured a white actor painted Yellowface. When this serial was broadcast on TVOntario in Canada, it resulted in a complaint to the Human Rights Commission and it has never been shown here since.

[snorkackcatcher]

Oh, that was the reason for the eye colour change, was it? I didn't realise (in fact had forgotten until just now). And no, I hadn't heard about them planning to make her darker skinned either, but it's a good thing they didn't.

On the general point, much 1960s/70s TV stuff looks dodgy now, but at the time it was probably a minor irritant compared to a lot of bigger racial problems. It's a positive sign that things have moved on, at least.

[liviapenn]

I'm not sure how much you care about spoilers, etc., and I'm not sure how many spoilers about DW S3 that Hth wants in her lj, so-- BEWARE SPOILERS EVERYONE.


Actually, that isn't what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is-- Martha's role, her story arc, is problematic for Martha in a way that it wouldn't be for a white character. That aspect of Martha's arc is explained more here and also hereBasically, in several individual episodes, she's explicitly given the role of the Doctor's servant, the one who works for him, who serves him, who tends to his physical and emotional needs without getting an equal measure of attention from him in return. In the finale, although we're led to believe that she's actually going to play some kind of active role in saving the world, instead we get a climax where Martha plays no particularly important role

[liviapenn]

If the truly best actor/actress for the job is a PoC, the role is problematic for a PoC to play, but integrity of the characters/story would be compromised by changing either the new role or the previously established characters--which is the lesser evil? Hiring a second choice white actor/actress? Throwing continuity and character development out the window? Is there a third, better option?The thing is, saying "we should always hire the best actor/actress for the job" is examining the problem as if it existed in a vaccuum, and my whole comment was basically about how you can't do that, because to address racism, you have to recognize patterns and context, and not just treat individual examples as if they *weren't* part of the pattern

[kaethe]

As I said in a comment above, it seems like it boils down to a "lesser of two evils" situation. A person loses an opportunity for a job due to her race, which isn't fair or right any way you look at it. (Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it *shouldn't*.) But what you're saying about not actually being the right actress in spite of her talent does make sense, and it kind of shifts the perspective from which I was thinking about the issue. Thanks for explaining more!

[liviapenn]

I still don't think it really *does* boil down to that, though. I mean, just off the top of my head, I can think of so many ways that there still could have been a "rebound Companion" story arc, with Freema cast as the companion-- *without* the unfortunate stereotype that DW S3 invokes

[zvi_likes_tv]

I really don't know much about how the relationship between The Doctor and Martha is going to work out, but what I've read on this thread sounds like The Doctor's attitude is actually an organic, realistic development of his character. So, you've got a role that requires a specific take on a character (Martha's, in this case), and actress who is capable of doing a fabulous job with the role who is also a PoC . . . isn't it also problematic *not* to hire her?Maybe in Britain it's different and a series really is nailed down tight before you start filming, but in the States, at least, episodes are being written and storylines are being adjusted throughout the season. The latest widely publicized examples I can think of are the Sylar character's run being extended and the Zack character's run being cut short on Heroes. Also, Marc on Ugly Betty got brought on permanently, and the characters brought into humanize Wilhelmina Slater (her daughter and the Texas business man) were cut once they figured out they didn't work out. Or, one of the