Oh, I'll go ahead and say it if YOU won't

Feb 13, 2007 22:17

If you've missed it on the news, there was a shooting here in Utah Monday evening. An 18-year-old with a shotgun killed five before being cornered by Ken Hammond, an off-duty police officer who kept him pinned down with fire until uniformed officers arrived. It's not clear who fired the shot that killed Sulejmen Talovic, but the perp is dead, and ( Read more... )

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moonsword22 February 15 2007, 06:25:54 UTC
In a situation like that, where the officer is presented with a choice between taking out a suspect/perpetrator using lethal force and letting the target present an imminent, lethal threat to others (most definitely including the officer!), there isn't a "right" decision. While sometimes a person can be talked down, that isn't always possible. Further, the life and safety of the victim is paramount to all other concerns, even the life of the officer; allowing them to be harmed simply isn't "right", either.

When it comes down to a situation like that, an officer doesn't have a "right" choice. Killing a human being is never right in my book.

What they have is a choice between taking someone down using whatever means necessary or allowing them to cause yet more harm. It is a choice between necessary violence, perhaps even inflicting death, and victimization of the innocent. That the officer has to make that choice in the first place is only another tragedy. I wouldn't want to have to make that choice. I regret that he did.

That the media, who wasn't there, didn't have to face the choice between the death of a criminal or that of an innocent, doesn't have to live with the fact that, however necessary it was, they had to take a human life, finds it somehow appropriate to further compound the strain of the situation, is just another cruel injustice. I don't know many law enforcement personnel at all, really, but I appreciate the dangerous, difficult job they have voluntarily chosen to do. Maybe someday they won't have to make choices like that anymore.

That day isn't coming tomorrow and it won't be the day after, either, much as we may hope. Until it arrives, I'm thankful that we have people willing and able to step up and deal with the evil that lurks in the hearts of men. And I offer my prayers, for whatever good they may do, to those hurt in this mess.

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gurgi February 15 2007, 18:12:47 UTC
I disagree with your first scenario, and your supposition that there is no "right" choice...

The choice that ends the day with the most people alive and free of bullet wounds is the right decision...

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_eljefe_ February 15 2007, 18:24:41 UTC
I think what he meant was more along the lines of there being no choice that is "right" for everyone. The right choice for those that lost family to the kid with the gun would have been if the off duty officer had shot earlier. The right choice for the family of the kid with the gun would have been if the officer had waited and talked the kid into surrendering.

The choice that ends the day with the most people alive and free of bullet wounds is the right decision...

change that to "the best we can do", and it is more accurate.

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moonsword22 February 15 2007, 18:59:18 UTC
*shakes head*

Let me explain something as clearly as I can: I do not regard the killing of another human being as ever being right, ethically or morally. Necessary, certainly, as I tried to make clear, even acceptable as the best of the likely outcomes, but not right. It is never right to take a human life, even in circumstances that make it necessary, acceptable, and the best available option, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Please do not misunderstand, I am not criticizing the officer's decision. He made a necessary choice between the lesser of two evils and, in my opinion, he made the best one by removing the gunman. I simply regret that the outcome ended in the necessity of killing him. I have no objections to the use of lethal force in situations where it becomes necessary, I simply do not believe that taking human lives is ever fundamentally "right" even if it is necessary and the best choice in the situation.

*sighs, shakes head again*

It's very hard to properly articulate my beliefs along those lines. Let me put it this way, I regard killing as a sin but one that can be forgiven provided that the circumstances call for it. Does that make more sense?

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dragonbane February 15 2007, 20:10:58 UTC
Hunh. What religion do you follow? I don't believe I've ever run into one that does not condone killing in one form or another. MURDER, yes. But killing in many situations is not only acceptable, but encouraged, by every religion I've ever studied - though admittedly late-stage Bhuddism attempts to rise above/beyond worldly concerns like that.

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moonsword22 February 15 2007, 21:56:30 UTC
I'm more of a non-denominational monotheist than anything else. While I believe there's a God, I also believe ethics and behavior matter more than dogma, something that means I have friction with certain of the more... zealous proselytizers that one occasionally runs into in the South.

Like I said, I find taking someone's life to be an extreme step, one that is never "right" in an ethical sense but one that all too often is necessary under the circumstances. It's a sin in the sense of being an offense against the basic principles I believe in. But, I don't have a large problem with the death penalty or the use of lethal force in those situations where it becomes necessary. If one must take or end a life because there is no better choice or because the other has committed so offensive and heinous a violation of the law, then it is forgivable because it was best or only option available at the time. In an imperfect world, the best of intentions can lead to the worst of outcomes, something that I believe God understands. "Necessity" and "best option" as ethical concepts do not always equate to "right" to me.

It's not necessarily rational. (Actually, it probably isn't, to be honest.) It is what I believe and it works for me. *shrugs* That's really all that matters in terms of religion, as far as I'm concerned.

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wolfrick February 16 2007, 03:22:55 UTC
Killing a human being is never right in my book.

In my disgust at reading this statement, I started to reply with an ad hominem attack on your intelligence. Instead, in the name of good taste and respect for my host (this is Howard's journal, and we're guests), I'll just say that you really need to think about your place in society and re-evaluate this statement and whether you really believe it.
I'm not going to give scenarios to try to "prove" you wrong. But if you don't believe that sometimes the only way to deal with a person's extreme misbehavior is to use deadly force to instantly incapacitate them, then I feel you aren't entitled to the benefits of the protection provided by that force, should you ever need it.
In other words, if you wouldn't kill to defend yourself, why should anyone else do it for you?

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moonsword22 February 16 2007, 04:46:22 UTC
There has been a misunderstanding somewhere over what I was saying. I'm going to send you an email instead of attempting to hash this out because your tone appears to be quite hostile to me and I do not wish to provoke some sort of public conflict.

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