For one thing, MOST books (even genre books!) have as their focus love, relationships, family drama and interrelationships -- relationships between characters is basically what fiction is all about. All male authors write about these topics, too. And sorry, you've never read a family saga? What exactly is your definition of "family saga"? Supernatural, for example, is a family saga. As is To Kill a Mockingbird.
What it sounds to me like you're saying is that you're not a fan of literary fiction in general, which is fine, as you're entitled to your opinion -- but you're couching it in unbelievably sexist terms. You say you don't like female authors because they don't write about things that interest you. Bullshit. They write about the same topics men write about. I'm thinking of some of the most popular/well-hyped literary novels of the past ten years -- Freedom, Everything is Illuminated, Cloud Atlas, etc. -- and most of them are male-authored "family sagas" that probably wouldn't have gotten NEARLY as much hype and respect had they been authored by a woman. Maybe they wouldn't have even been published, because of exactly the bias that you bring to the table when you say "women don't write about things I'm interested in."
Maybe you're just in the wrong section of the bookstore. There is chick lit, and there's "women's fiction," and then there are female-authored novels. These are different things.
And there are plenty of men/male-identified/queer people who enjoy fiction written by women, so saying you don't identify with feminine things has basically nothing to do with whether or not you can enjoy a book by a female author.
I'm not even going to touch the "female writing styles" that you allude to. This makes it sound like men are all varied and different while women are one giant same-style block.
Please, please think harder about this, and examine your own ingrained sexism and what these "opinions" really stem from. Maybe you think it's cool to distance yourself from women, to wave them away and say "I'm not mushy and sentimental like all OTHER women so their work is not for me," but this attitude is hurtful and pervasive and has been fucking up our literary world for CENTURIES.
Sorry to go off on you, but this topic is close to my heart and it is truly distressing to hear stuff like this from a friend.
I actually enjoy the chance to have exactly this sort of discussion ;)honeylocusttreeOctober 7 2012, 01:03:52 UTC
Hah, well you know it's in my nature to have unpopular opinions. I'm always happy to share them because, well, mostly people don't do that sort of thing in order not to create controversy. But I make posts like this because they generate discussion, and they can be an opportunity to learn. I always get a broader perspective. So...on that note:
What exactly is your definition of "family saga"?
That's like one of those stories about generations doing...whatever it is they do. Like it starts with a couple and then their kids and then their kids after that. A lot of them seem to be 'moved to America' stories. There are a lot of those, and frankly I don't get the appeal. I mean if they were generations of like, assassins or ninjas or something I might read it, but it tends to be more mundane stuff. People love that stuff (judging by how many are out there) and I just. Don't. Get it.
I like stories where there is action, and things blow up, etc. It's pretty simple stuff, really. SPN is a good example--I enjoy the fight scenes and wish we had more. I like observing the fight choreography. Two of my favorite movies are Hot Fuzz and Kung Fu Hustle--silly action/comedy films. When i watched Spider-man II (with Tobey MacGuire) I was annoyed by the romance subplot and felt there wasn't enough violence. Part of the reason I enjoyed Avengers so much is because there was no romantic subplot thrown in. I hate Moulin Rouge. I hate romantic comedies as a general rule. My interests cleave very closely to things that have been traditionally regarded as unfeminine. I've been meaning to see The Raid for a while now, and that's just a nonstop bloodbath.
What it sounds to me like you're saying is that you're not a fan of literary fiction in general, which is fine, as you're entitled to your opinion -- but you're couching it in unbelievably sexist terms.
That's certainly fair, and the fact is I don't actually know where that comes from--why don't I read female writers? But I don't quite know the answer to that, which is part of what prompted me to make this post. I have mixed feelings about literature in general, as I like a good read, but don't like the principles informing a lot of the ideas of what makes a 'great novel'--I want a story first and foremost, and not to be told 'read this because it's great literature' (I've been scarred by HS English argh argh argh). So I'm a big Terry Pratchett fan, but there are a ton of great novelists I've never read. And probably won't. For whatever reason. I enjoy Umberto Eco, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and people like that. I can't think of a female author I've read that I liked that much. I rifle back through my memory and there just...isn't anybody there. There's just a big empty space--with the exception of science fiction writers. (sorry, I literally had to split this in 2 parts)
Re: I actually enjoy the chance to have exactly this sort of discussion ;)claudiapriscusOctober 7 2012, 02:29:32 UTC
Oh my goodness, I have more recommendations for you. Okay. so originally I was going to append this to my last comment, because I remembered Briar Rose by Jane Yolen that you might like, which isn't exactly magical realism, but is a story about a woman surviving the holocaust framed through the fairy tale she tells her grandchildren (and through which she made sense of what she experienced). But the comment about explosions and action/comedy has inspired me to push my current favorite author (for the sheer fun): Karen Chance, who writes books that are basically urban fantasy action comedies with a hefty dose of history fangirling. (I like history fangirling.)
Re: I actually enjoy the chance to have exactly this sort of discussion ;)honeylocusttreeOctober 7 2012, 02:43:15 UTC
I used to love Jane Yolen, though I haven't read her in years. But i respected the gravity of her writing. That could be interesting! (I was a big reader on all Holocaust and Hiroshima fiction when I was a kid.)
And everything is better with explosions. Everything.
Re: I actually enjoy the chance to have exactly this sort of discussion ;)claudiapriscusOctober 7 2012, 03:10:20 UTC
Honestly, her writing style frequently is, "hmm, so my characters are being chased by two antagonistic groups through a casino, and now the two groups are fighting each other in addition to trying to kill the characters, and their battle accidentally disturbed the zombie floor show act, and zombie elvis is now trying to gnaw on the unsuspecting norms, and now there are the Graeae wading into the mess and happily joining the slaughter...hmm, this is getting too dull. You know what this scene needs? Some explosions. And some unexpected time travel."
As far as the sexist thing goes, it's probably true--I'm one of those people who was never close psychologically to the girls around me. So I never developed a real sense of emotional attachment to the cultural ideas that shape a lot of accepted female behavior. In all fairness, I don't have any real love for male behaviors either--in general people confound me. But I have to wonder, what is it about female writers that I can consider reading a book by that person and then not find the subject matter being written about interesting, once I've read the blurb on the back? And I don't have an answer for that. But it seems to be a theme.
I'm not ideologically pure. I have flaws and one of them is that I've always been looking at the world as an outsider. Given the nature of females, how they form relationships, and how people who are psychologically outside the norm have to learn to see themselves and their relationships to those people, it's not surprising that I'd look at other women askance. I just don't understand their values, interests, and ways of living. I understand that that would bother you, and that's fine. It's a flaw that I have. I'm not sure what it would take to change it. Learning more about people who are culturally different from me is a good way to start. But I'm not sure it's going to come from the writing, sad to say.
If you *do* have any books you'd recommend that might have something to say on the subject, I'd cheerfully accept those recs. Most of the time when I make a post like this, it's a worthwhile exercise because I have an opportunity to learn and broaden my horizons. I certainly don't see why this couldn't be the case this time.
Sorry to go off on you, but this topic is close to my heart and it is truly distressing to hear stuff like this from a friend.
Hah, it's good though, if I wasn't willing to examine myself I wouldn't post this stuff. I like asking questions, and I prefer questions because they beget questions. Answers are easy, and rigid, and boring. And also I want to know--why don't I read this stuff? And maybe it is just a matter of looking in the wrong place, or maybe it's not being marketed to me correctly, or maybe I'm just a picky reader and these days what I read is mostly old stuff anyway, so I tend to ignore up and coming writers regardless of gender (which is true).
I think if I made a list of my top 10 books, they'd all be by guys. And don't think I'm not weirded out by this. Because it is weird. Today I stopped in the library when I realized this and went, 'huh.' But I don't have an answer, except that I don't understand or enjoy the subjects these books are about. That's a personal preference. And it says a lot about me, and about how I fit (or don't) into the cultural milieu.
So what does it mean? I...really don't know. Show me a great novel by a female writer that I want to read, and I'll happily read it. If it has ninjas and explosions in it, so much the better.
Unfortunately, this is NOT an unpopular opinion by any means, but rather quite mainstream. I'm not sure why you think it's controversial or radical, except that you're posting it directly to a female-dominated literary space (your fanfiction blog), which is probably a less welcoming environment to this opinion than, say, a room full of men.
Also, I just realized you're not even actually saying that you dislike female-authored literature -- you're saying you refuse to even TRY and read any, because of the blurbs and the supposed "female" content of them. You know those blurbs aren't written by the authors, right? But rather by (maybe male) publishers attempting to shoehorn the books into their perceived idea of "audience"? It's purely commercial, capitalist.
I guess I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that there is, as you keep saying, some ultimate female nature to which "most" women -- but not you! -- subscribe. This is on par with saying that all women have a specific "style" of writing, while men get to be individuals. Unfair. You mention Jenna Marbles in the comments, as if she's supposed to be the paragon of the "average" woman?! Oh please. I can't stand her either. And guess what, I wear dresses, and have close female friends, and cry at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I even wear makeup. Does that illegitimize me in your eyes, as a writer? My "femaleness"?
For the record, I'm not a big romance fan either -- romantic movies and books make me snore. But that doesn't make me less of a woman, because the two things aren't actually related at all. Women, like men, come in all different personalities. And women writers, like male writers, come in all different flavors.
If you tell me your top ten favorite books of non-genre fiction, I'll try to think of some literary novels by women writers that you might enjoy. I can't promise you'll like the blurbs or the back covers, though, and that does seem to be your main criteria for deciding whether or not a book is worthwhile.
Well it's not that I reject them for being girly, it's that I reject them for their content, and they happen to have female authors. It's a conundrum.
Fave books
100 years of solitude the big sleep name of the rose bridge of san luis rey catch-22 maus night (elie wiesel) all the names watership down focault's pendulum
(it's tough because most of my faves are genre fiction, so I had to think hard--otherwise that list would include several post-apocalypse novels, lotr, etc.)
I tend to favor magical realism, so anything like that would be good. I remember I read an Isabel Allende YA book a while back, but didn't find it thrilling.
My genre fiction list includes things like Alas, Babylon, Riddley Walker, and the Last Unicorn (because I was shocked by how amazingly good it is. Seriously.) Oh, and if you get a chance, The Way Station is actually a really good read. Also Stalker might need to be on there someplace.
Science fiction that sticks around for 50 years is always worthwhile, it seems.
I'm picky about sci-fi and a big fan of historical fiction (even when it's not as good as it thinks it is--I'm talking about The Book Thief :P). That said, I'm always down for some Bradbury.
For one thing, MOST books (even genre books!) have as their focus love, relationships, family drama and interrelationships -- relationships between characters is basically what fiction is all about. All male authors write about these topics, too. And sorry, you've never read a family saga? What exactly is your definition of "family saga"? Supernatural, for example, is a family saga. As is To Kill a Mockingbird.
What it sounds to me like you're saying is that you're not a fan of literary fiction in general, which is fine, as you're entitled to your opinion -- but you're couching it in unbelievably sexist terms. You say you don't like female authors because they don't write about things that interest you. Bullshit. They write about the same topics men write about. I'm thinking of some of the most popular/well-hyped literary novels of the past ten years -- Freedom, Everything is Illuminated, Cloud Atlas, etc. -- and most of them are male-authored "family sagas" that probably wouldn't have gotten NEARLY as much hype and respect had they been authored by a woman. Maybe they wouldn't have even been published, because of exactly the bias that you bring to the table when you say "women don't write about things I'm interested in."
Maybe you're just in the wrong section of the bookstore. There is chick lit, and there's "women's fiction," and then there are female-authored novels. These are different things.
And there are plenty of men/male-identified/queer people who enjoy fiction written by women, so saying you don't identify with feminine things has basically nothing to do with whether or not you can enjoy a book by a female author.
I'm not even going to touch the "female writing styles" that you allude to. This makes it sound like men are all varied and different while women are one giant same-style block.
Please, please think harder about this, and examine your own ingrained sexism and what these "opinions" really stem from. Maybe you think it's cool to distance yourself from women, to wave them away and say "I'm not mushy and sentimental like all OTHER women so their work is not for me," but this attitude is hurtful and pervasive and has been fucking up our literary world for CENTURIES.
Sorry to go off on you, but this topic is close to my heart and it is truly distressing to hear stuff like this from a friend.
Reply
What exactly is your definition of "family saga"?
That's like one of those stories about generations doing...whatever it is they do. Like it starts with a couple and then their kids and then their kids after that. A lot of them seem to be 'moved to America' stories. There are a lot of those, and frankly I don't get the appeal. I mean if they were generations of like, assassins or ninjas or something I might read it, but it tends to be more mundane stuff. People love that stuff (judging by how many are out there) and I just. Don't. Get it.
I like stories where there is action, and things blow up, etc. It's pretty simple stuff, really. SPN is a good example--I enjoy the fight scenes and wish we had more. I like observing the fight choreography. Two of my favorite movies are Hot Fuzz and Kung Fu Hustle--silly action/comedy films. When i watched Spider-man II (with Tobey MacGuire) I was annoyed by the romance subplot and felt there wasn't enough violence. Part of the reason I enjoyed Avengers so much is because there was no romantic subplot thrown in. I hate Moulin Rouge. I hate romantic comedies as a general rule. My interests cleave very closely to things that have been traditionally regarded as unfeminine. I've been meaning to see The Raid for a while now, and that's just a nonstop bloodbath.
What it sounds to me like you're saying is that you're not a fan of literary fiction in general, which is fine, as you're entitled to your opinion -- but you're couching it in unbelievably sexist terms.
That's certainly fair, and the fact is I don't actually know where that comes from--why don't I read female writers? But I don't quite know the answer to that, which is part of what prompted me to make this post. I have mixed feelings about literature in general, as I like a good read, but don't like the principles informing a lot of the ideas of what makes a 'great novel'--I want a story first and foremost, and not to be told 'read this because it's great literature' (I've been scarred by HS English argh argh argh). So I'm a big Terry Pratchett fan, but there are a ton of great novelists I've never read. And probably won't. For whatever reason. I enjoy Umberto Eco, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and people like that. I can't think of a female author I've read that I liked that much. I rifle back through my memory and there just...isn't anybody there. There's just a big empty space--with the exception of science fiction writers.
(sorry, I literally had to split this in 2 parts)
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And everything is better with explosions. Everything.
*notes Chance*
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Clearly I should've been reading this ages ago.
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As far as the sexist thing goes, it's probably true--I'm one of those people who was never close psychologically to the girls around me. So I never developed a real sense of emotional attachment to the cultural ideas that shape a lot of accepted female behavior. In all fairness, I don't have any real love for male behaviors either--in general people confound me. But I have to wonder, what is it about female writers that I can consider reading a book by that person and then not find the subject matter being written about interesting, once I've read the blurb on the back? And I don't have an answer for that. But it seems to be a theme.
I'm not ideologically pure. I have flaws and one of them is that I've always been looking at the world as an outsider. Given the nature of females, how they form relationships, and how people who are psychologically outside the norm have to learn to see themselves and their relationships to those people, it's not surprising that I'd look at other women askance. I just don't understand their values, interests, and ways of living. I understand that that would bother you, and that's fine. It's a flaw that I have. I'm not sure what it would take to change it. Learning more about people who are culturally different from me is a good way to start. But I'm not sure it's going to come from the writing, sad to say.
If you *do* have any books you'd recommend that might have something to say on the subject, I'd cheerfully accept those recs. Most of the time when I make a post like this, it's a worthwhile exercise because I have an opportunity to learn and broaden my horizons. I certainly don't see why this couldn't be the case this time.
Sorry to go off on you, but this topic is close to my heart and it is truly distressing to hear stuff like this from a friend.
Hah, it's good though, if I wasn't willing to examine myself I wouldn't post this stuff. I like asking questions, and I prefer questions because they beget questions. Answers are easy, and rigid, and boring. And also I want to know--why don't I read this stuff? And maybe it is just a matter of looking in the wrong place, or maybe it's not being marketed to me correctly, or maybe I'm just a picky reader and these days what I read is mostly old stuff anyway, so I tend to ignore up and coming writers regardless of gender (which is true).
I think if I made a list of my top 10 books, they'd all be by guys. And don't think I'm not weirded out by this. Because it is weird. Today I stopped in the library when I realized this and went, 'huh.' But I don't have an answer, except that I don't understand or enjoy the subjects these books are about. That's a personal preference. And it says a lot about me, and about how I fit (or don't) into the cultural milieu.
So what does it mean? I...really don't know. Show me a great novel by a female writer that I want to read, and I'll happily read it. If it has ninjas and explosions in it, so much the better.
Reply
Also, I just realized you're not even actually saying that you dislike female-authored literature -- you're saying you refuse to even TRY and read any, because of the blurbs and the supposed "female" content of them. You know those blurbs aren't written by the authors, right? But rather by (maybe male) publishers attempting to shoehorn the books into their perceived idea of "audience"? It's purely commercial, capitalist.
I guess I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that there is, as you keep saying, some ultimate female nature to which "most" women -- but not you! -- subscribe. This is on par with saying that all women have a specific "style" of writing, while men get to be individuals. Unfair. You mention Jenna Marbles in the comments, as if she's supposed to be the paragon of the "average" woman?! Oh please. I can't stand her either. And guess what, I wear dresses, and have close female friends, and cry at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I even wear makeup. Does that illegitimize me in your eyes, as a writer? My "femaleness"?
For the record, I'm not a big romance fan either -- romantic movies and books make me snore. But that doesn't make me less of a woman, because the two things aren't actually related at all. Women, like men, come in all different personalities. And women writers, like male writers, come in all different flavors.
If you tell me your top ten favorite books of non-genre fiction, I'll try to think of some literary novels by women writers that you might enjoy. I can't promise you'll like the blurbs or the back covers, though, and that does seem to be your main criteria for deciding whether or not a book is worthwhile.
Reply
Fave books
100 years of solitude
the big sleep
name of the rose
bridge of san luis rey
catch-22
maus
night (elie wiesel)
all the names
watership down
focault's pendulum
(it's tough because most of my faves are genre fiction, so I had to think hard--otherwise that list would include several post-apocalypse novels, lotr, etc.)
I tend to favor magical realism, so anything like that would be good. I remember I read an Isabel Allende YA book a while back, but didn't find it thrilling.
Reply
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My genre fiction list includes things like Alas, Babylon, Riddley Walker, and the Last Unicorn (because I was shocked by how amazingly good it is. Seriously.) Oh, and if you get a chance, The Way Station is actually a really good read. Also Stalker might need to be on there someplace.
Science fiction that sticks around for 50 years is always worthwhile, it seems.
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