A friend asked me to write some about problematic jokes.

Nov 24, 2010 09:18

[Not because they want cover to tell problematic jokes, but because they want to be able to lay it out for other people why they shouldn't ( Read more... )

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marnanel November 24 2010, 14:46:54 UTC
Good points.

One quibble you didn't cover which I hear a good deal:

Short answer: Because they hurt the feelings of people who have done nothing to merit such pain, whether you meant it to or not.
Quibble: But you don't have a right not to be offended.

(I know what I'd say to this, but I thought I'd mention it in case perhaps it was useful for inclusion.)

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docstrange November 24 2010, 15:14:15 UTC
One of your better posts, sir. I particularly like the perpetuate/appearance-of-support argument, as it describes (what I think is) the greatest damage from [-ist] humor, sometimes even when performed by a member of the group.

I also agree with marnanel - one does not have a right to not be offended; history teaches that, given time, such a "right" will come to suppress the speech of the un-privileged. Not to mention that, even used to stop oppressive speech, such speech suppression legitimizes the false victim ideology of the powerful who have to give up a little corner of their power as demographics change.

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ursuscelticus November 24 2010, 16:15:31 UTC
Thank you for this. I have been trying (and not being very successful at) explaining to my 13 year old stepdaughter why some of the shockingly racist things that come out of her mouth are so offensive to me, and so very not OK. Unfortunately, we're having to combat a very different attitude with what she gets at her dad's house, where shit like "Ahmed the dead terrorist" is seen as "funny." I'm going to show this to her and hopefully have a better discussion than others we've had recently around this subject.

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nisi_la November 24 2010, 21:10:13 UTC
Thank you. I was once married to a white man who was subjected to hearing many racist jokes, which the tellers thought would be fine with him, because, you know, he was white. So even if your audience looks like it isn't part of the "humor's" target, they could still belong, and even if your audience actually isn't part of the target group, they could still be hurt by it.

Also reminded of Steve Martin's encounter with racist realtors in "The Jerk;" they assured him none of his new neighbors would be "eggplants." After some discussion of how obnoxious certain vegetables can be he got their point and went all Tai Bo on their asses, because he was raised believing himself black. One of my favorite movie moments.

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holzman November 24 2010, 22:28:34 UTC
I love that scene. Also when Mama breaks it to him that he's always going to look like that.

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nellorat July 19 2011, 11:51:07 UTC
Excellent discussion! Thanks.

I'm glad you wrote "either validating or making light of." I semi-recently did a lot of research into the theory of humor, and this is a main critical split on *ist jokes. The latter approach seems to be winning, and I find it more supportable--that jokes don't have truth value anyway, so any claim that they validate ideas is suspect. But if not validating, it is spreading, and in an inappropriately light-hearted way.

But the vital issue, as you so perfectly put it, is, "Because they hurt the feelings of people who have done nothing to merit such pain, whether you meant it to or not."

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