Slash and the appropriation/objectification of The Other
This post, on the topic of female slashers writing about gay men, really struck a chord with me. A kind of annoyed, exasperated chord. So I started writing up a response, and as it got longer and longer, I realized that the most appropriate place for me to post this was in my own journal. I don't post about my opinions as often as I should in my
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I *think* the point there was that *some* actual gay men get squicked or traumatized by *some* badly written and/or high romanticized stories featuring male characters in love with each other. (I'm guessing stuff with shojo manga influence in which there are a lot of femme guys and in which there are a lot of just patently Japanese manga conventions like self-lubricating parts that do not in real life self-lubricate to that extent and 'glowing cones of light' and the healing power of taking it in the rear, etc.)
I know that the prevalence of this purposely not-hardcore-gay (for lack of a better term) fiction does actually bother *some* men, because they cannot understand the appeal of its non-realism (read: fantasy). For example, back when I wrote about male human characters I came across this site (it is marked adult content, be warned) http://www.squidge.org/~minotaur/ which is written specifically to inform slash and fanfic writers how to realistically portray gay male sex.
I *think* the post to which you linked was debating whether it was fair to expect slash and fanfic writers to mark all their highly romanticized fantasy with a warning indicating that it is not 100% realistic gay male sex written by a gay male.
My own personal opinion is that it's ridiculous to expect such warnings on fiction. But then, I personally also think it's ridiculous that we have to mark coffee cups with warnings about hot contents, or that we have to mark fan fiction with so many warnings already (triggers, kinks, etc.) to protect sensative readers who may accidentally stumble on the stories and become traumatized. It's not that I'm seeking to traumatize others, I just believe that there's enough 'political correctness' in the world these days, and people in general need to toughen up. also, as a writer, most forms of censorship, even in form of ratings and warnings, do offend me to some extent.
Anyway, I have read a lot of shojo manga and fan fiction written by women, and I have read novels and short stories by outwardly gay male authors, about gay or bisexual male characters, and I can perceive a difference. A truly skilled writer can get away with imitating the tone or style of another gender, but generally speaking, or speaking on my own personal limited experience and observations, there is a difference. Men, gay or not, just think differently than women. Therefore, they write differently. This is not good or bad; it just is.
Anyway, your post was intriguing; especially your discussion of whether the female authors may sometimes be writing out of a desire to explore what they perceive as a male side to themselves, or otherwise a side to themselves that is empowered yet free to love another of the same gender or sex.
I would hazard to say it is OK to write about topics and actions that have not been experienced first hand by the author. But, I would also suggest that if the author *does* have the intent of presenting a sense of realism or suspension of disbelief, then research would not hurt. For example, suppose an author is going to write a military thriller, but has no military experience and does no research on the military. Then, that author should not themselves be unprepared to hear complaints from actual veterans and soldiers about their work being unrealistic. Sure they can defend their freedom of expression, but they should not (realistically) consider such criticism unwarranted.
This is why I so adore writing speculative fiction about non-human characters. I spend time researching locations, cultures in general, etc., but ultimately I stand on the crutch that the characters and societies I write about do not actually exist, and therefore no representatives from those societies or cultures can complain I did them a disservice.
"We don't take orders from people who don't exist" Laughter.
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I *think* the point there was that *some* actual gay men get squicked or traumatized by *some* badly written and/or high romanticized stories featuring male characters in love with each other.
Also, but not only. The point is also, from what I gathered from conversations with her, that those unrealistic/idealised fictional gay men paint a distorted picture of real gay men in those who read m/m, because people don't draw a sharp line between fiction and reality.
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So, there exists worry that *some* readers will believe that the gay male characters in slash and fan fiction accurately portray typical and/or realistic gay men, because...
a) they believe the content of fiction is true
b) they do not know any real gay men to draw comparison
c) they do not have the intelligence and/or critical thinking skills to distinguish fiction from reality
d) all of the above
And that due to this, aforementioned readers will go on believing in erroneous characterizations and/or stereotypes. And, potentially, this will lead to actual gay men being further misunderstood by society?
I seriously want to say, "Honey, please!" right now, but someone somewhere will read and say I am exploiting a negative stereotype.
I now understand the argument more clearly, but it really just reinforces my personal option that people need to toughen up (stop complaining if movie makers, for example, defame their culture by casting one of their own as a villain, as if it's only OK when other groups are portrayed as villains), and ignites my personal rage at the lack of critical thinking skills among the general populace.
(In my option) We don't need more warnings on fiction. We need more critical thinking skills!
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Rather, stereotypes constitute collective images and frames, which are created and perpetuated by the writers of literature and film as well as the audiences, including, of course, very educated, highly intelligent individuals. Falling for stereotypes is not a question of being able to tell apart fiction from reality. This problem is about the creation of mental frames through literature, which then have an actual effect on real life - and vice versa, of course.
People need to toughen up? This is so incredibly easy to say! Please believe me when I tell you that creating these collective mental frames is HIGHLY problematic, especially if they are insulting (as is the Camp Gay trope more often than not), belittling ("aw, look at those cute gay guys together - almost like a real couple"), falsifying reality ("okay, I wonder which of them is the overemotional one?") and/or if there are no alternative versions presented anywhere in a particular genre or context or whatever - circle of friends.
The tendency of m/m slash to present one skinny, fragile, emotionally unstable bottom and one strong, active, dominant top in a "gay" relationship of main characters, for instance, is so prevalent that a considerable number of readers AND writers of the genre aren't even AWARE of how many other kinds of gay man there are. How many other kinds of gay love. How many other kinds of combinations for all the features described above.
And that is harmful.
Because these writers and/or readers may meet gay people in real life and ask them: "Soooo, which of you two is the woman/man?" They may ask: "Why in the world would you want to adopt? A child needs a father and a mother!" (Read: Just as a good relationship needs one stereotypically feminine and one stereotypically masculine partner.)
And that is harmful.
People need to toughen up?
These people, who constantly get fed how the two partners in a gay relationship ought to behave according to straight stereotypes may behave in all sorts of hurtful or damaging ways, completely unintentionally. They may ask the wrong questions, say the wrong things, look surprised at the wrong moment... Too inconcrete? How about this: they may get confused if, during a gay marriage or civil partnership (whatever it is called in their country), one partner happens to wear a suit, but isn't the older of the two and isn't the one to take his or her partner's name.
And this, then, is harmful.
Especially when this means the marriage cannot proceed without a considerable amount of mistakes, hesitations, and apologies on the side of the registrar.
There you are. Some very personal bits and pieces, very real, very much experienced by this poster.
I agree that warnings won't do the trick. Awareness-raising among authors and readers of general fiction regarding the question of what is or isn't harmful to a particular minority, however, might.
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There tends to be an assumption on the part of many progressive people that only a select few people can see through these ubiquitous stereotypes and name them for the limiting, insulting lies that they are. I see this argument a lot, which is that most other people are completely ignorant to the influences of media on their lives, coming from people who claim to be more enlightened. You, it seems, can see through the stereotypes. And yet you assume that you are only one of very few who can. Why is that?
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And yes, I think that I have come quite far in the process of detecting this kind of structure in texts, certainly further than a great number of other people, though it is hard to determine exact numbers because self-evaluation can never be very exact. My reasons are that
a) I belong to two minorities (non-cisgendered, non-cissexual) that I know of, who, by definition, will strumble across prevalent heterosexual and binary gender norms the moment they attempt and fail to adjust their life according to them,
b) I have encountered exactly these issues and others in my sociological and literary studies for the last six years now, including some empirical research (though nothing noteworthy) in the field of gender studies and a dissertation on gender roles in contemporary fantasy literature. I am also aware that, before I studied the subject this intensively, I was blissfully unaware of many things that I can recognise and point out now and I don't think I was ever one of those people who so laughingly get called "stupid" or "ignorant" here.
To make this clear once and for all, I think that everyone, including very intelligent people, including those who have come across a great deal of stereotypes, including you, including me, can be caught in certain ways of thinking or may fall victim to prevalent collective attitudes and assumptions. To believe one is totally free of them is what I would call ignorant or naive at the very least.
That is why these discussions are necessary. Because we all make mistakes in this area and when we do, we need to be called out on them by other people who may have just a little more of an insight than we do.
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No, I am afraid there are a lot more than that.
This comes across as rather elitist...
Point taken. I sometimes am pretty elitist.
As for the examples of how people affected by stereotypes and literary tropes can go on to act offensively toward individuals and groups being portrayed in said tropes, I offer this solution (in addition to any general public awareness campaign that may be supported):
Ask the offended group or individual to respond with positive works to counteract the negative ones.
Example: Let's say it's the late 20th century and the news just reported that a couple of kids who committed a heinous attack on their school were associated with *my* subculture.
Do I:
a) rant on the internet?
b) address formal (polite) correspondence to the media outlets and entertainment corporations asking them to stop maligning my subculture?
c) start a charity like 'members of [subculture] for victims of [tragedy]'?
d) counteract the media/entertainment stereotypes by creating fictional works of my own that include positive examples of people from my subculture?
All of these are valid actions, but 'a' is going to cause the most grief. 'b' will most likely only be effective if my cronies do the same. 'c' is a really beautiful possibility, if managed well. 'd' could possibly be most fulfilling, though like 'b', will be more effective if my cronies also do the same.
Fortunately for my subculture, a lot of us were in the arts and literary fields (among others). The media eventually started harshing on the next subculture.
Portrayals of gay individuals in the media have progressed immensely, just in my own life time. Sure there's still progress to be made (maybe a lot), but things are a lot better than they used to be. If anyone is really, really upset about the negative portrayals in slash and fan fiction, I really suggest they write some themselves, using positive examples. Just my opinion, but I think that will be most fulfilling, productive, and effective.
Here's some books I would recommend to readers (a varieties of loves and characters in literary fiction):
Written on the Body by Jeanette Winterson
Narcissus and Goldmund by Hermann Hesse
Imajica by Clive Barker
Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov
Liquor by Poppy Z. Brite
The Living One by Lewis Gannett
The Swimming-Pool Library by Alan Hollinghurst
Our Lady of the Flowers by Jean Genet
A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini
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Okay, basically I agree with the method (as do others, who have written minorities recounts and even managed to get them published). Now for the execution - how do you solve the problem that white, straight, cis-gendered Europeans and US Americans have a much higher chance to be published than members of minority groups in our society?
Let's say it's the late 20th century and the news just reported that a couple of kids who committed a heinous attack on their school were associated with *my* subculture.
I am not sure how to react to this. I mean, are you talking about a hypothetical minority group you could have belonged to in another life, or is this real life experience in code so that potential Internet stalkers don't find out which minority you belong to? I'm sorry if this appears a dumb question, but I really can't tell. And it is vital for what kind of answer I can give you. If you really belong to a minority group who had this specific experience, you will know that individual members of your group will have chosen their individual ways to deal with these issues (in other words: all four of your given courses of action have probably occurred to people and been pursued). You will also be aware that, depending on whether you are talking about the 1980s or 1999, Internet ranting, blogging, and online debates weren't quite as prevalent as they are these days. This is important because online discussions are, in fact, often more than just rants. A lot of opinion-making happens on the Internet and on blogs and websites, which deal with this kind of topic. And while I agree that random rants with no content and no actual knowledge of the topic can hurt the cause (though not necessarily the individual), I firmly believe that it is helpful, right, and even necessary to call people out on this kind of problem via blogs and forum discussions.
If you are, in fact, talking about a hypothetical minority and are simply trying to put yourself in such a minority's shoes, the above still counts, but I'd also have to express my astonishment that you think this little thought experiment is going to tell you all you need to know about the solution of societal problems with minority groups and their treatment, or the situation of those who are at the receiving end of these problems. Astonishment. Politely speaking.
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I am not going to buy that an entire genre is illegitimate because of the likelihood that some stupid people will treat it as reality.
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I don't know what people argued before, but when I say that m/m is spreading a false, stereotypical image of gay males among a given audience, then that audience will definitely include adults and mentally abled people - and probably you.
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Then I say that you are drawing with a very wide brush. (Just as I, inappropriately, drew with a wide brush when using "stupid people" -- it's, as you say, more complicated than that.)
"Because these writers and/or readers may meet gay people in real life and ask them: "Soooo, which of you two is the woman/man?" They may ask: "Why in the world would you want to adopt? A child needs a father and a mother!" (Read: Just as a good relationship needs one stereotypically feminine and one stereotypically masculine partner.)"
You appear to be saying that if fanfiction promotes any gay stereotype, it must therefore promote all gay stereotypes. The bulk of the slash I've read does not describe either partner as the woman -- female-role stereotyping, yes, calling either partner a woman, no -- and I have never seen slash that both addressed adoption and claimed that children needed a mother and a father. People who say either of those things didn't get it from fanfiction, they got it from society at large.
Stereotyping gay people is bad. No question. Stereotyping gay people in fiction is also bad. No question.
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I realise I should have written "perpetuating" instead of "spreading", which is linguistically closer to what happens.
Of course you haven't come across a slash fiction, which addressed adoption. That is not how the creation of a mindset works. The processes I am talking about never work alone or in a sociological vacuum. Of course, society plays a role. Of course, politics play a role. What I meant to express is that our society has developed a collective frame of how relationships can (and should) ideally work. And of course our society traditionally bases its values on heterosexual relationships, for obvious reasons (one being that the notion of homosexual vs. heterosexual goes back no more than two hundred years, give or take a few decades).
This frame includes a lot of binary pairs, which should be very familiar to you: masculine-feminine, hard-soft, strong-weak, tall-small, edgy-round, outside-inside, active-passive, dominant-submissive, paid work-house work, rational-emotional, discipline-nourishment, etc. Even if one individual does not always associate all these features and all their implications with a partnership, these are nevertheless ideas that are prevalent in many people's thinking and get triggered by all kinds of encounters, literary or not.
Now, you said "female-role stereotyping, yes". I am saying "that's all it takes to perpetuate the stereotype". And unless you were looking specifically for these binary traits of masculine vs. feminine in slash fiction, it is very likely that a lot of genderbinary and heteronormative clues just passed you by unnoticed, especially if you are cis. These clues are planted so subconsciously that it is barely possible to notice them without gender- or "queer-goggles".
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I would be interested to know what, if any, areas of ignorance you are willing to cop to.
I'm not saying you are wrong, I just... don't think people are as broadly ignorant of the effects of media stereotypes as you seem to believe. I would like to know what evidence you have for this point of view, other than anecdotal evidence.
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For information on this topic, I suggest George Lakoff, who is one of the leading researchers in the field of cognitive theorists and who wrote Metaphors we live by, Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things and other highly interesting works on cognitive science, which obviously have in common that they investigate human thought processes, not only ignorant people's thought processes.
Lakoff also talks about mental frames here, although this is more on the subject of linguistics than on fiction. I also highly recommend watching this on the topic of a minority's problems with its treatment in fiction.
In general, my answer is that of course there is research on the topic of how fiction influences people's behaviour, people's reality. It is quite easy to find, too. Try and use google scholar. The APA is often a good source, but so are others. Marketing research is to be consumed with caution, of course, but I assume you know that.
Here's a few items I found:
- on the influence of anecdotal accounts in news and in fiction
- on the influence of advertising
- on the effect of stereotypes on the perception of self
- on the effect of sexist stereotypes on people's actions
And last, but not least here's a very interesting book on the topic of Psychonarratology. This goes quite deep into the subject and addresses a few more aspects than just what we are talking about here, but it's a brilliant read nevertheless.
Hope this helps.
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But mothwing is saying, I think, that not only is there irritation that these gay male readers feel, but they experience a true and direct harm from these poorly written stories. But I wonder what that harm actually is. If the stories are bad, they are bad, and most reasonable people aren't going to take them seriously, let alone take any real-life social lessons from them. In fact, the very badness of most of these stories is an argument against the veracity of the content: if a writer cannot get characterization or setting right, if she stumbles over plot and makes something that is preposterous from the get-go, then... whatever ignorant worldview she is also expounding is also likely to be written off by most competent readers.
The problem, I suppose, could be when intelligent, skilled writers purposefully write unrealistic scenerios. I'm not naive enough to think this doesn't happen; I've read a fair amount of good fanfic that is based on stupid premises (such as mpreg, or with a definite seme/uke dynamic, or whatever). I can see where there might be some harm coming from such stories. But most of the good fiction I come across actually does display a fair degree of sensitivity to real issues that gay men face, and often does a credible job (per my reading) of portraying an authentic experience. I don't often see gay men in fandom speaking out against these stories.
I cannot ignore the possibility that gay men in fandom are voluntarily silencing themselves, in order to protect themselves from discrimination. So I know that things are not perfect and happy-daisy whatever. And I'm definitely not one of those people who thinks that gay readers have an obligation to educate female slash writers on their various prejudices, so the fact that they are not speaking doesn't necessarily mean that there's not a problem that female slash fans need to face.
I... just think that most of us make a good faith effort. Hell, many of us are variously queer in our own ways (I know I am), and therefore are not insensible to how this feels not just on a gender level, but also in regards to underprivileged sexuality. And I know that for myself, all I can really do is just write the best stories I can, and be open to listening to criticism from whoever wishes to offer it. And beyond that, I don't know what else there is.
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