§004 » condicio sine qua non (text & video post)

[heelsandlaw]

Comments

[doctor_tangent]

Putting too much faith in idea that laws and legal system are fair and just. Sometimes not simple and clean concept of crime therefore punishment. If governmental structure is strong enough, could care less about idea of nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege. If they want the person handled and gone, then it's done. We claim noble concept of not punishing those before the laws were created, but will find a way. It's "human" nature.

[ooc; interesting stuff. Looking at how England kept to its Germanic roots, and developed along the lines of a common law heritage. How the nobility/people use this to justify the Magna Carta and the "Ancient Constitutions". Too bad Rome didn't stay there long enough, or they could have had Roman Corporate Law implemented like the continent. Although this could be an amusing joke about why England's royalty survived and France's didn't in one way. The French always need a strong Emperor figure. England not so much later on. One bad English king, well... Parliament picks up the slack. One bad French King, y viva la revolución... and yes, I know the French don't speak Spanish.]

[heelsandlaw]

And in this place, do you honestly think the governmental structure is strong enough? There isn't even a government, but there is a police force and while I fully believe they are doing a good thing, they're working on the basis of nothing which makes them vigilantes with a badge. Why shouldn't this change?

[ooc; I like the differences between common law and civil law, they're interesting. And then there's mixed legal systems... To be honest, French law I find mostly annoying, English law is fun.

/babbles]

[doctor_tangent]

Technically there is a government. Government is reigning body of politic, whether it be a king or a parliament. The Deities seem to function as that politic. Doesn't matter whether or not there is a larger institution that we consider as "government," we already seem to have one.

[ooc; trust me, I'm aware of mixed legal systems. I was thinking about how US law has a much more mixed element in a way nowadays myself... Haven't read heavily between French law and English law, but when you theoretically have the diktats of each leader technically making up one system, and commonly held practices making up the other, it's easier to see which is going to be the more fun of the two when looking at it at large.

Don't worry about the babble. You could probably get me going for awhile on law, and Early Modern history stuff.]

[heelsandlaw]

That would depend on your definition of 'goverment'. I still maintain the position that legal certainty would go a long way in this place, particularly since what you define as a government does more in terms of creating uncertainty than anything else.

[ooc; Mixed legal systems are amazing. South Africa has property law elements from both the civil and the common law tradition even though those elements technically clash, it's kinda fascinating. Anyhow, I like the civil law tradition better in general, because everything's nicely written down and ordered and you know where to look, but the common law is more... interesting? fun? yes.

I fail at history. Did I mention that?]

[doctor_tangent]

Not sure if agree with you. Place seems to chaotic. Don't think it would help out. No real authority to tie that law down to consequence. These Deities almost seem to like the chaos. No monopoly of violence ultimately despite police force existing.

[ooc; that sounds utterly fascinating... despite being outside my area of studies. I might look that up lately. Civil may be more orderly, but I don't know, I like the idea of having a law which truly evolves in a way. Something which can be utterly dynamic and changes with the culture itself.

Yeah, you mentioned that. It's just my area, so I can understand the idea of babbling away. Plus, if anything, I'm trying to give topics in law that may interest you if you were to do a rainy day reading day. I swear I'm not trying to convert you over to the historical side. Just bringing up stuff that may interest you.]

[heelsandlaw]

And this place would be more structured if the police were working on the basis of some kind of code. That, at least, would tie the law down to consequences, though it would not be backed by the apparent power of the Deities.

[ooc; Look for the South African trust, then. It's interesting, because the trust is such a common law thing and cannot exist under the civil law understanding of ownership. And hey, it even ties back to history, without the French revolution the civil law understanding of ownership would probably not differ much from the common law one. And some civil law countries are introducing trust-like constructs into their legal system while others are outright banning it (like the Dutch)... it's not quite my area of studies, I'm more into international law than property or just private law in general, but it's still really interesting.

Converting me to the historical side. Are there cookies? :D ]

[doctor_tangent]

Making this place more structured does not mean this place will become better. Trying to impose order onto chaos sometimes creates even more chaos. Law is necessary evil of society. But too much law is a burden. Although questions on how much law we're creating for it to become excessive.

[ooc; Oh, I understand. Property law is probably the root of modern law if you think about it historically. With the fall of Feudalism and its land = wealth, to the shift to capitalism, property really helps to define how law is handled. I will keep that in mind though. I wouldn't mind doing a little research into it.

Maybe~ I'll make some cookies if it brings you further into our fold. (must resist temptation to tell joke. "When in Rome, do as the Visigoth"... translation, they sacked Rome. So much for the grandeur of Rome")]

[heelsandlaw]

There are no laws whatsoever right now. What, according to you, would be the evil in me writing up a criminal code? How will it create more chaos? Honestly, I'm interested.

[ooc; The funny thing is, though, that comparative property law is a really new branch of law and very little has been done with regards to it, as compared to, say, comparative contract or comparative tort law. And yet it's such a basic, fundamental branch of law.

Cookies are always good. Right now I'm reading up on science. Why not history next.]

[doctor_tangent]

Be ignorant to say there is no law whatsoever. Society exists here... despite no government apparatus to "create" law, yet still collectively following some set of codified ideas more or less. Is that not law? Saying nothing against idea of writing up a criminal code... just nobody will follow it. Plus, you're one person. Not everyone has same collective values when it comes to their ideal law. Legal drama to develop most likely.

[ooc; I blame my double majoring in political science and history for even seeing such a thing, but that's interesting that I'm having someone who's studying law pointing out that it's a little researched field. Fun stuff.

Yes, enabling go! I feel for you on the science front though. One of my history professors is/was/whatever a doctor before she got her PhD in history. She really makes looking at something like the Black Death much more interesting, because she explains the commonly held ideas of what the scholarship (who are rarely trained in medicine... if at all) think it was, and explains the nature of the disease and such. If I had a better like of biology and the such, I would so want to study the history of disease and medicine.]

[heelsandlaw]

There's a difference between moral values of a society and actual law, codified or not - but without a justice system, there is no stare decisis and no law. A society following a set of codified ideas does not make them law. And I know I'm just one person. I'm not planning on writing a code on my own, nor am I planning on passing down my ideas as the law. That would be pretentious. But someone's got to make a start, else nothing will ever change.

[ooc; I'm afraid you lost me there. Why's it interesting?

I'm really not very scientifically minded, though I did quite well in biology. My mum's a doctor, my ex was in his last year of medical school and my current BF is in his third year and I'm going to do a minor in Law and Health, so, eh. I like medicine? Even thought about studying it, but in the end it was too much science for me. Still. General knowledge, get?

Political science and history. That would probably make my head explode, it would. ]

[doctor_tangent]

Not necessarily talking about moral law. Some would disagree with you. Common law based around the idea of generally accepted thing being law ultimately. Tribal societies don't need institutions or judges to keep law, yet they are inherently lawful.

[ooc; I find it interesting that my double majoring is the only reason I see modern law coming ultimately from property law in many ways. Between my focus on Early Modern history, then some fun stuff looking at the evolution of political ideologies, it just seems logical. If you still don't get it, then don't worry about it. Probably my own mind working in overdrive.

General knowledge is always win. Can't stand the larger field of biology, but medicine at large is always interesting. Especially when you include factors of how the medical establishment goes back and forth on the causes and methods of treatment on certain diseases and disorders.

They strangely work well together. Between the political theory I've done which keeps coming to help me with my various history classes, or the other way around... I can't say it was a bad thing. They're really complementary in the long run.]

[heelsandlaw]

So what would you have me do. Sit around and do nothing? This City does not work like a tribal society, nor is there any canonical law allegedly passed down from a God or the Deities. Should I just accept that this place runs somehow and ignore that there is no basis for judicial justice?

[ooc; I think I might get it, but maybe I don't get it *scratches head*

General knowledge is good. I liked chemistry better originally, but biology got to be lots of fun in the last few years of high school, all neurology and evolution and such, I liked it.

Either of them on their own would be enough to make my head explode. Or implode. I'll just be over here, playing in my law-sandbox and dipping my toes into philosophy once in a while >.>]

[doctor_tangent]

Well... this place seemingly does run somehow. Not sure how long this City has been here, but many seem to have been here awhile. Not saying to ignore your desire to bring law, just question if there may be law existing already which does job of judicial law.

[ooc; Oh bad chem teacher during high school. Turned me off to it more or less. But I can't deny there are some very interesting areas in the scientific fields in general.

Political science will come back into your lives somehow, especially if you're studying law. Politics and law are way too entangled at times. Especially since one of the common pathways towards studying law is through a political science degree.]

[heelsandlaw]

There used to be a justice system, though from what I heard it ended when the deities decided to sink the prison - with prisoners inside it. I will certainly do a lot of research and consult as many people as possible before even attempting to introduce any laws.

[ ooc; That's too bad. I had a wonderful chemistry teacher who believed I was a lot more talented than I actually am with regards to science, but it spurred me on quite a bit.
There is a lot of politics, if not necessarily political science, in the study of law, especially when it comes to things such as the European Union or human rights law, where states play a huge role.
Well, political science as a path towards law is probably a US thing, right?]

[doctor_tangent]

Well, proves that the Deities are still applying their powers politic. Or were at least. Don't think introduction of such laws will go smoothly. People are probably going to demand democracy and the like when it comes to laws.

[ooc; bad teachers are part of life, just got to learn to move past and not blame the field of study.

I always assumed that psci was a common movement path towards law for everyone, alongside fields like latin, philosophy, and criminal justice. Didn't realize non-US countries had a different experience with that.

Maybe so. I always think psci is more important towards looking at law, because you're getting political theory as well as governmental structure and relations in there. You're getting a good introduction to the effects of Parliament/Congress, executive action and judicial action on the larger superstructure... which has tremendous influence on the idea of law. Who knows.]

[heelsandlaw]

Just because it won't go smoothly and won't be easy doesn't mean it shouldn't get done.

[ooc; Hm, it is different in countries with a different university system than the US? So I think Australia would be similar, but most European countries are different. There's no college period in which you can pick from many different courses and then after you move on to law school, you just decide on one study right after high school, e.g. law in my case.]