I'd just like to clarify (with the caveat that I am not one of the people who originally objected to your post and therefore cannot claim to speak for any or all of them) that most people probably wouldn't take issue with that sentiment (i.e. out-of-character characters are annoying, sexual activity can be a part of characterization, thus sexual activity diverging heavily from canon is annoying).
But the term "slutty" isn't purely descriptive. It's loaded with values and judgments and, almost always, is intended to belittle the person described. It plays into larger societal notions that women shouldn't have sex (unless men want to have sex with them, in which case they absolutely SHOULD, unless other men DON'T want them to have sex with the first men in which case they're basically doomed to be a prude or a slut or both). You can't really call someone a "slut" descriptively, partly because of the word's traditional use and partly because the threshold of "sluttiness" is so subjective. Any use of the word is going to be a judgment.
So while I think your sentiment was pretty uncontroversial (although, again, I don't claim to speak for anyone else), the way you expressed it was very problematic. Using a different word in place of slutty would probably have helped. "Promiscuous" is a bit better, but still a bit value-driven. "Non-canonically sexually active Olette is annoying" doesn't have the same ring to it, but it seems much less worrisome.
Also, the fact that you used some offensive language does not make you a bad person. Really! Slut-shaming and similar practices are ubiquitous in most Western societies. That doesn't excuse the practices, but it makes their use by people who aren't familiar with feminist thought understandable. The objective of pointing all this out isn't to make you feel bad; it's to educate. So I hope you don't take this to heart as a personal attack; it really isn't intended as such. It also isn't meant to make you apologize or anything, since you already did that (quite laudably, I think). I just want to make sure we're all on the same page regarding what's at stake.
Anyway. I hope this whole incident doesn't put you off the community or sporking or feminism or anything, because they're all wonderful things and you're one of my favorite sporkers.
I'm rather tired of writing paragraph-style responses to everything, so this last little tidbit will be in numbered format.
1) Purely a note to self; Make sure to set posting default to unscreen all anon comments, in case I forget to myself. Everyone deserves to be heard. 2) I agree. To all points made. I'm not going to apologize any more, because it seems I made my point clear, and I'm glad you all understood. 3) I thank you for your concern, but I've weathered far worse (after all, I'm a geeky, bisexual, polytheist writer-editor. I have more detractors than I can count). I never take an attack on my work as a personal jab; I'm an editor, I do that to people all the time. In fact, as mentioned above, I'm taking this all in stride and seeing how best to turn controversy into both a learning experience (as you've pointed out) as well as something we can all enjoy farther on down the road. 4) No, this hasn't put me off of sporking, nor has it put me off feminism. If anything, it's given me more respect for the latter, seeing as how quite a stir was made to defend a slight infringement upon a core value. As for the former, well, I've been in far hotter water over sporks in the past, though usually it was due to the author finding the spork and giving me a good tongue-lashing. If anything, I'm afraid that sporking and feminism have been put off of me, as I can't seem to get anything through the moderation queue anymore. 5) If you're the same anon who's been posting all this time, then you could have fooled me about being your favorite. If you are, then you have my deepest of respect for not holding back on the berating. I've said it once (though never here) that I don't enjoy sugar-coated commentary. One should say what one means, and my feelings be damned. 6) Thank you. In general. I hope to keep posting and to keep you all entertained.
Eh, I won't say anything about that sentiment (I think that both men and women should be abstinent, but that's my religion talking) but I don't really like the use of "slut" or "promiscuous" as an insult. Besides sounding ridiculous and/or old, it doesn't really fit into modern culture or God-given free will.
Beyond that, I really think that "slut", the word, can be forgotten. It's not needed anymore, it sounds ridiculous, and chances are anyone using that word as an insult is being a hypocrite based off of what they did when younger that they are now condemning people for.
I will stand by my "blah blah tolerance blah" thing, but that's because so much PCness nowadays has gotten so annoying that I'm lashing back at it- much like ponies. It's not wrong, but I do think that it's hampering freedom of speech.
protip: freedom of speech IS NOT freedom from criticism.
You can still say things, everyone else has the freedom to call you a douchebag for it, said calling you a douchebag does not in anyway prevent you saying things- there for PC is only hurting your feelings, not hampering your free speech.
And this doesn't even cover all the things wrong with suggesting you actually have rights to free speech on privately owned websites.
The one who thinks that arguments work better if they type in all caps and swear a lot.
You have no idea how tempted I am to call you a douchebag because of that right now, but I won't. You're right. PCness doesn't violate freedom of speech, but it does annoy someone who sees so much of it being slung about everywhere that I backlash against it.
Not all caps, just caps on emphasised points because most people are apparently too stupid to notice italics and I'm generally too cranky to want to deal with that ever.
In other news, gosh, I do so wonder why I get the very distinct impression you're straight, cisgendered and male.
Before this goes too farplotmasterOctober 7 2011, 00:18:27 UTC
Can we all just agree to disagree before this whole thing turns into a colossal, community-destroying flame war? Honestly, it's a spork, and it would be a very silly place to make a stand about a cause of any kind, really. You both have good points, and you both seems rather passionate about your stance, which means that this can only end in tears. Please, for the sake of everyone, can we all just let the wounds heal on this whole thing?
Re: Before this goes too farpervertparadoxOctober 7 2011, 01:25:05 UTC
If such a flame war were to 'destroy the community' I would think the the sporkers would be better off looking into a new hobby due to being more sensitive than the authors they make fun of for being sensitive.
I would like to note for the record this has very little to do with the spork and more to do with 'spraying misogynistic bullshit everywhere after things were squared away and apologised for.'
But the term "slutty" isn't purely descriptive. It's loaded with values and judgments and, almost always, is intended to belittle the person described. It plays into larger societal notions that women shouldn't have sex (unless men want to have sex with them, in which case they absolutely SHOULD, unless other men DON'T want them to have sex with the first men in which case they're basically doomed to be a prude or a slut or both). You can't really call someone a "slut" descriptively, partly because of the word's traditional use and partly because the threshold of "sluttiness" is so subjective. Any use of the word is going to be a judgment.
So while I think your sentiment was pretty uncontroversial (although, again, I don't claim to speak for anyone else), the way you expressed it was very problematic. Using a different word in place of slutty would probably have helped. "Promiscuous" is a bit better, but still a bit value-driven. "Non-canonically sexually active Olette is annoying" doesn't have the same ring to it, but it seems much less worrisome.
Also, the fact that you used some offensive language does not make you a bad person. Really! Slut-shaming and similar practices are ubiquitous in most Western societies. That doesn't excuse the practices, but it makes their use by people who aren't familiar with feminist thought understandable. The objective of pointing all this out isn't to make you feel bad; it's to educate. So I hope you don't take this to heart as a personal attack; it really isn't intended as such. It also isn't meant to make you apologize or anything, since you already did that (quite laudably, I think). I just want to make sure we're all on the same page regarding what's at stake.
Anyway. I hope this whole incident doesn't put you off the community or sporking or feminism or anything, because they're all wonderful things and you're one of my favorite sporkers.
Reply
1) Purely a note to self; Make sure to set posting default to unscreen all anon comments, in case I forget to myself. Everyone deserves to be heard.
2) I agree. To all points made. I'm not going to apologize any more, because it seems I made my point clear, and I'm glad you all understood.
3) I thank you for your concern, but I've weathered far worse (after all, I'm a geeky, bisexual, polytheist writer-editor. I have more detractors than I can count). I never take an attack on my work as a personal jab; I'm an editor, I do that to people all the time. In fact, as mentioned above, I'm taking this all in stride and seeing how best to turn controversy into both a learning experience (as you've pointed out) as well as something we can all enjoy farther on down the road.
4) No, this hasn't put me off of sporking, nor has it put me off feminism. If anything, it's given me more respect for the latter, seeing as how quite a stir was made to defend a slight infringement upon a core value. As for the former, well, I've been in far hotter water over sporks in the past, though usually it was due to the author finding the spork and giving me a good tongue-lashing. If anything, I'm afraid that sporking and feminism have been put off of me, as I can't seem to get anything through the moderation queue anymore.
5) If you're the same anon who's been posting all this time, then you could have fooled me about being your favorite. If you are, then you have my deepest of respect for not holding back on the berating. I've said it once (though never here) that I don't enjoy sugar-coated commentary. One should say what one means, and my feelings be damned.
6) Thank you. In general. I hope to keep posting and to keep you all entertained.
Reply
Beyond that, I really think that "slut", the word, can be forgotten. It's not needed anymore, it sounds ridiculous, and chances are anyone using that word as an insult is being a hypocrite based off of what they did when younger that they are now condemning people for.
I will stand by my "blah blah tolerance blah" thing, but that's because so much PCness nowadays has gotten so annoying that I'm lashing back at it- much like ponies. It's not wrong, but I do think that it's hampering freedom of speech.
Reply
You can still say things, everyone else has the freedom to call you a douchebag for it, said calling you a douchebag does not in anyway prevent you saying things- there for PC is only hurting your feelings, not hampering your free speech.
And this doesn't even cover all the things wrong with suggesting you actually have rights to free speech on privately owned websites.
Reply
Oh, wait... it's you.
The one who thinks that arguments work better if they type in all caps and swear a lot.
You have no idea how tempted I am to call you a douchebag because of that right now, but I won't. You're right. PCness doesn't violate freedom of speech, but it does annoy someone who sees so much of it being slung about everywhere that I backlash against it.
Reply
In other news, gosh, I do so wonder why I get the very distinct impression you're straight, cisgendered and male.
Reply
Reply
I would like to note for the record this has very little to do with the spork and more to do with 'spraying misogynistic bullshit everywhere after things were squared away and apologised for.'
Reply
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