haha sorry, I had to split my post into two chunks, apparently there is a limit to how long a reply can be!!!
internships at the ND schools are getting better and better. I think SCNM and NCNM have the best interships. Griffin Hospital in CT is now the first hospital to offer residency to naturopathic doctors. thats awesome! there are TONS of residencys and internships for multi disciplanary clinics and preceptorships availiable through NDs, DOs, DCs, and MDs of all sorts including oncologists, cardiologists, you name it.
I dont think NDs will ever be offered surgery. and I hope it never happens. when the osteopaths got full rights they basicly got assimilated in 'MD-dom' nowadays most kids that go into Osteopath school do so because the GPA requirement is slightly lower, and most practicing osteopaths dont even preform osteopathic manipulations, they rely on drugs and surgery like MDs. this is a slap in the face of the noble profession that Osteopathy once was, and I for one dont what to see it happen to naturopathy.
frankly if you want to be a surgon go to MD school and be a surgon, it would be pointless to be an ND and a surgon because you would never get a chance to use any natural theraputics or counselling. but on the brightside you would be a rich surgon!!
personally I want to be an ND and help people PREVENT surgery, and refer when neccessary.
im getting tired and losing forcus.. did i have a focus to start with?? anyways im tired. I hope this helps you some what. I have done lots of research and interviews (and suggest you do the same!) and would be happy to answer any questions. I also highly rcomend reading Nature Cures: the history of alternative medicine in america
Response Part 1healthnut22July 18 2006, 08:00:36 UTC
Thank you for your lengthy reponses and time and sharing some of all the information you've gathered. I've done much research on the licensing laws and a possibly slightly different angle on the fields and careers than you have, so that means it was nice to get the added perspective that you have from your own research that you've done. With my angle of research and information in mind (for instance, I know the various prerequisites and requirements like the back of my hand), one thing I haven't done so much of is interviews. I think that's a really good idea. I'm actually a little scared to think of doing it, but I bet if I asked my chiropractor for starters, she might let me talk or shadow her or her husband, and I could gain some valuable "daily life of a physician" information for starters.
I kind of hope ND's will never be able to perform surgery either (to keep their purity as drugless practictioners- although modern licensed ones are now not drug-free since they can use anesthetics and things like that in some cases), but as I realize my own real interest in it, I wonder if, wisely, that means I should pursue more and/or that angle too- for real, instead of waking up one day when I'm 46 and really regretting that I never got that sort of training.
I don't believe in surgery, and I would like prevention at all costs, but that's where something I might have a real talent in often gets squashed again- because, of course, my mind says, I don't believe in surgery. From an educational standpoint and in taking charge of my own decisions and responsibilites, however, I think that if someone really feels drawn to something and/or thinks they'd be good at it, they should at least give the world the honor of looking into that talent- because what if we desparately need it? Another thing I think about following your *real* passions even if you're scared of them is that sometimes (polyergic hinted at this below) if you aren't the traditional sort to do some career, you can add a much-needed perspective to it that hasn't been offered before.
Now that I've said all that, maybe I should talk a little bit about the kinds of medical or surgical things I'm actually interested in (you will understand these sorts of things that I mention...):
1. I don't believe in most of the general surgery that's done, favoring comparatively simple natural healing methods instead and/or vital nutrition and prevention.
2. I also don't believe in most back surgery, unless it's somehow wildy necessary, unfixable by manipulation, or emergency for some un-spine-related reason; I have been super-well-trained by my chiropractor in this. ;)
3. I started to realize that I love surgery stories, so dispite my "good" Wholistic Judgement, I've started to try to tentatively appreciate that in myself.
4. I realized not all surgery is bad, and in some emergencies, although not even all because advanced holistic methods can cure even severe illness and injury problems, it is life-saving or essential.
5. I have a real appreciation for emergency and emergency-room surgery, and especially repairative surgery like, for instance the most obvious, sewing back on fingers or repairing severe injuries- though these are highly tedious and likely take hours. I'm not sure I'd have the stamina for that kind of sewing-vital-things-back-on, but the idea is when people have an injury severe enough to send them under the knife, and not just get hospital stitches.
6. I read a plastic surgery book for pure fun one time, and while I was totally disgusted with the vainty end of it (which was most of it), and the doctor's horrendous attitude and the fact that he spent his days looking at women's breasts and then "helping" them "make them better," I was strangerly drwan to the book.
6. I discovered that things like surgery for babies' Cleft Lip and Cleft palate (I have no doubt these could be prevented by better health in pregnancy, but the fact is when they do happen, they need good repair for the child to have a happy or functional and healthy life), and also war wound (or probably any gun-wound) surgeries, are all repaired by *plastic surgeons*. So the field isn't completely corrupt and cosmetic-only. I had never thought about that deeply enough to make the distinction.
Response Part 2healthnut22July 18 2006, 08:03:21 UTC
7. (Here's another indication of how long I've thought about surgery): I am a huge advocate of the use of acupuncture for surgical anesthetizing instead of more dangerous chemical anesthetic. This can also be used in dental surgeries, and has been in Mexico. (But not in the U.S. far as I know.) It's become quite popular news (unlike the first time I ever read about it) that people can and have done open heart surgery with acupuncture, while the patient sits up, talks, and eats oranges or orange juice (for energy/minerals/distraction?). In China, it is very common for some of their hospitals to entirely use this method. I admire that no end. Come to think of it, maybe I should go and visit a Chinesse hospital sometime. In the future. The open-heart surgery sounds freaky, but anesthesia and "going under" is one of the significant dangers of surgeries.
8. I want to sew up minor cuts and wounds, and I believe that is possible with ND training alone.
9. I was born via emergency c-section, spent 8 weeks in a hospital after birth (without major problems), and I have been to an emergency room for wounds 3 times, receiving stitches twice for cuts (I had 11 in the bottom of my foot including 5 of them inside for a 2-layer stiching job when I was 16 and it took 3 months to heal anyway due to the toughness of the bottom of my foot [I was/am a modern dancer]), and one time having my hair tied in a simple knot (and me checked out for head trauma) to fascillitate healing when I was jumping on my parents bed and fell and cut the back of my head badly.
In the case of my birth, my parents and I have speculated that much was the fault of the negligence of the doctor in not responding earlier to my mothers symptoms, and to a simle lack of imformation about simple nutritional or wholistic methods that could have easily reversed the problem. I grieve this. However, the facts being the facts, we both would've been...not here (dead) without the advanced medical system's urgent care even after someone else in their system's cock-up. It's weird because the system that helped cause it and couldn't prevent it also corrected it, but I have always had the debt of my life owed to highly competant surgical and hospital care at a premier teaching hospital and preemie care ward, and I've also maintained a fascination with the whole "standard" art. Further, I used to assume the doctors were all mean nasty bastards and that I came into the whole under their "care," but I later learned that my mom and I had an especially incredible, competant, and very knowledgable and caring team, and that the people were far from horrible jerks at that end of the ordeal (the original doctor had more to answer for).
10. Given all this (wow), I'll always have a soft spot for hospitals, surgery, critical care, and even great doctors who are doing what they are talented at and what they want to do, at least in the case of emergencies and where medicine is really needed.
11. Finally, I wonder if I might have some place in all this, and if I could offere a good presence, doing something I loved, to help other people.
12. I want to help other people more than anything, and use whatever I've been given to do that.
13. I love emergency medicine, plain and simple.
14. Emergency medicine in my mind NEEDS to include things like acurpressure to simply and easily supress asthma attacks, and homeopathics to treat shock. But I just like emergency medicine, even though it should be more natural. ND's don't get to do a lot of that.
15. I really like to counsil people and give them nutrional advice, but I would definitely do that after surgical or other "medical" treatments to aid in their healing. ...While I can't think of anything that could've pulled the skin back together (though there might be something, perhaps an herb preparation) in my very, very deep foot wound, I don't doubt that it could've healed far, far faster after stiches if I'd had herbal ointments on it or some other form of healing treatment. Instead, I used the stupid antibiotic as they'd told me to at the hospital (which didn't fascillitate HEALING it faster at all), and my mom and I only found out by a fluke after 2-some months that bovine colostrum helped heal it incredibally faster.
Response Part 3healthnut22July 18 2006, 08:04:28 UTC
I limped for a long time, and I'm sure that did nothing to help my spinal allignment.
Here is the reason for my "problem" and wondering if I should pursue more of an MD education as well. I realized ND's can't do surgical residencies even if they got more licensable in more states, because surgery is a "medical" art, and you need a "medical" degree to do it! So here's where I am. I'm starting to wonder how to get the correct nutritional and holistic training but also be able to perform actual medicine in the traditional form. I'm wondering about looking into my correspondence degree again for ND, esp. since you can get anatomy and all the basic medical sciences at either ND or MD school. The nice thing there is that I probably wouldn't have to do four years at both schools; I would only need those first two years' training at one place or another- if everyone was nice to each other and agreed to transfer my transcripts.
Re: Response Part 3natural_pathJuly 18 2006, 18:39:24 UTC
cool. no MD school has accepted credits from an ND school. so go to MD school first. and corrispondince would be much easeier. but what about acupuncture??
Re: Response Part 3natural_pathJuly 18 2006, 21:11:45 UTC
I dont think youre jumping ship at all. helping people is helping people. an MD and an ND is just that... a degree... its just a peice of paper, it does not define you. I dont REALLY I know you. but I know you enough to know that you are a good person with strong principals. which ever path you take youll be happy with im sure. we need all the open minded/progressive MDs we can get. it will be fun as we both enter med school! we can help each other with homework! and when we are doctors (in a MILLION years) we can discuss cases!
Re: Response Part 3healthnut22July 18 2006, 21:46:22 UTC
Hey, yeah, you know, that's actually true!!
I looked into the simple, general terms of how long it will take to get a plastic surgery degree (in the encyclopedia, disonsour-style since my internet was off), and it takes 5 year residency plus the 4 years of med school. So I could be in school for another 13 years even WITHOUT any formal ND training at a school (or I could squeeze in summer courses during college). I'd be 36. Ouch. In contrast, I read a story about a liver transplant surgeon (another thing I think could be easily prevented if people were healthier), and going straight through school from college to med to the massive amount of residency (a 15-year one for major transplant surgery), she was not "out" and done with all training until she was 42. And that was the traditional route. I couldn't believe it. And then you get, what, a maximum of 15-17 years of real practice before people start thinking you're too old and outta retire? I guess you have to really, REALLY want to be a transplant surgeon..!! My mother went to graduate school when she was in her late thirties (and is currently working on a dissertation), so she was offended when I told her if I did all the schooling I was thinking of possibly doing, I wouldn't be out until I was 40. (After waiting on college for a couple years in my youth...seemed harmless enough. lol) But I actually didn't mean to offend her; I meant, unbelievably enough, to cheer her up, and let her see that her program of 5-6 years which she is almost done with would not even possible for me if I started at 38. But I guess I should've thought about her position on the whole thing before speaking. ;) And finally, I HAVE heard of of people who went into medicine later in their life to change careers or to do what they'd always wanted after half a lifetime of raising kids, so I guess where there's a will there's a way for everyone?!
I forget when you'll be going to med school and how far along in college you are. Have you done OK in the sciences so far?
Re: Response Part 3natural_pathJuly 18 2006, 22:04:45 UTC
I am upgrading science courses from High school. unfortunatly i wasnt into science in high school, and I went directly into art school after high school. im lucky that lots of my art credits will apply to a science degree though. I have another year left of the upgrading before i can go off to universrity. Im averaging about a 90% in bio chem and physics. a bit lower in pure math. mind you this was all with working full time at the healthfood store (which involves lots or research) and part time at the community centre (which can be emotionally draining) I have a gov. grant lined up for next year so basicly the government will pay my tuition rent and most of my utilitles while im in school so i dont have to work (....as much..)
i seem to be doing really great in physics especially. I love it. cant wait till next semester starts!
Re: Response Part 3healthnut22July 18 2006, 22:50:56 UTC
You know, I'm the same way. I wasn't into science in high school (and I was homeschooled, but I think that's sort of inmaterital, since since had the same problem). I also studied the arts. I was a violinist and a dancer and I did that for most of my life. Then an injury on the violin brought me to chiropractic, and I started to get hooked on that. And my grandmother(s) are both sort of into nutrition and supplements, and I was raised with things like whole foods and good nutrition and vitamin supplements when we were sick. So I started looking into naturopathy because it seemed natural (no pun intended).
We have a really great health food store 45 minutes away where my family buys most of our organic food and the occassional supplement (though we get those other places), and anything for natural life like natural cleaning products, etc. It's a great co-op and it's doing amazing things. I would LOVE to work there and one summer they even had openings for checkers, but I've never been able to see driving the 45 minutes daily to work there. I've often thought of it though. It would be amazing to work at a health food store for our future careers. I've read the funny stories you have about people thinking health food stores are sex shops. That doesn't happen here in the US as far as I've ever heard. There are two little health food stores in my town, but they are so independantly owned that pretty much THE workers are the owners, if you know what I mean. So first off: they never seem to need help, and second off: I find the owners a little scarey and have never tried to ask them if I could hang around their stores.
Working full time while going to school sounds like a hug thing to do. At least on the flip side it keeps you busy though. Last year, I only went to school part-time, and I think it still left too much time for me to worry and get worked up about life's little details. I would like to keep myself busy. I've thought about applying for work for during the school year, even though I will also be going to school full-time. Hmm.
I can't believe you like physics. My sister loves it, too, but it's my least favorite of all the sciences. Maybe once I actually study it I'll change my mind, since I never actually took it at all. But I don't know.
internships at the ND schools are getting better and better. I think SCNM and NCNM have the best interships. Griffin Hospital in CT is now the first hospital to offer residency to naturopathic doctors. thats awesome! there are TONS of residencys and internships for multi disciplanary clinics and preceptorships availiable through NDs, DOs, DCs, and MDs of all sorts including oncologists, cardiologists, you name it.
I dont think NDs will ever be offered surgery. and I hope it never happens. when the osteopaths got full rights they basicly got assimilated in 'MD-dom' nowadays most kids that go into Osteopath school do so because the GPA requirement is slightly lower, and most practicing osteopaths dont even preform osteopathic manipulations, they rely on drugs and surgery like MDs. this is a slap in the face of the noble profession that Osteopathy once was, and I for one dont what to see it happen to naturopathy.
frankly if you want to be a surgon go to MD school and be a surgon, it would be pointless to be an ND and a surgon because you would never get a chance to use any natural theraputics or counselling. but on the brightside you would be a rich surgon!!
personally I want to be an ND and help people PREVENT surgery, and refer when neccessary.
im getting tired and losing forcus.. did i have a focus to start with?? anyways im tired.
I hope this helps you some what. I have done lots of research and interviews (and suggest you do the same!) and would be happy to answer any questions.
I also highly rcomend reading Nature Cures: the history of alternative medicine in america
Reply
I kind of hope ND's will never be able to perform surgery either (to keep their purity as drugless practictioners- although modern licensed ones are now not drug-free since they can use anesthetics and things like that in some cases), but as I realize my own real interest in it, I wonder if, wisely, that means I should pursue more and/or that angle too- for real, instead of waking up one day when I'm 46 and really regretting that I never got that sort of training.
I don't believe in surgery, and I would like prevention at all costs, but that's where something I might have a real talent in often gets squashed again- because, of course, my mind says, I don't believe in surgery. From an educational standpoint and in taking charge of my own decisions and responsibilites, however, I think that if someone really feels drawn to something and/or thinks they'd be good at it, they should at least give the world the honor of looking into that talent- because what if we desparately need it? Another thing I think about following your *real* passions even if you're scared of them is that sometimes (polyergic hinted at this below) if you aren't the traditional sort to do some career, you can add a much-needed perspective to it that hasn't been offered before.
Now that I've said all that, maybe I should talk a little bit about the kinds of medical or surgical things I'm actually interested in (you will understand these sorts of things that I mention...):
1. I don't believe in most of the general surgery that's done, favoring comparatively simple natural healing methods instead and/or vital nutrition and prevention.
2. I also don't believe in most back surgery, unless it's somehow wildy necessary, unfixable by manipulation, or emergency for some un-spine-related reason; I have been super-well-trained by my chiropractor in this. ;)
3. I started to realize that I love surgery stories, so dispite my "good" Wholistic Judgement, I've started to try to tentatively appreciate that in myself.
4. I realized not all surgery is bad, and in some emergencies, although not even all because advanced holistic methods can cure even severe illness and injury problems, it is life-saving or essential.
5. I have a real appreciation for emergency and emergency-room surgery, and especially repairative surgery like, for instance the most obvious, sewing back on fingers or repairing severe injuries- though these are highly tedious and likely take hours. I'm not sure I'd have the stamina for that kind of sewing-vital-things-back-on, but the idea is when people have an injury severe enough to send them under the knife, and not just get hospital stitches.
6. I read a plastic surgery book for pure fun one time, and while I was totally disgusted with the vainty end of it (which was most of it), and the doctor's horrendous attitude and the fact that he spent his days looking at women's breasts and then "helping" them "make them better," I was strangerly drwan to the book.
6. I discovered that things like surgery for babies' Cleft Lip and Cleft palate (I have no doubt these could be prevented by better health in pregnancy, but the fact is when they do happen, they need good repair for the child to have a happy or functional and healthy life), and also war wound (or probably any gun-wound) surgeries, are all repaired by *plastic surgeons*. So the field isn't completely corrupt and cosmetic-only. I had never thought about that deeply enough to make the distinction.
Reply
8. I want to sew up minor cuts and wounds, and I believe that is possible with ND training alone.
9. I was born via emergency c-section, spent 8 weeks in a hospital after birth (without major problems), and I have been to an emergency room for wounds 3 times, receiving stitches twice for cuts (I had 11 in the bottom of my foot including 5 of them inside for a 2-layer stiching job when I was 16 and it took 3 months to heal anyway due to the toughness of the bottom of my foot [I was/am a modern dancer]), and one time having my hair tied in a simple knot (and me checked out for head trauma) to fascillitate healing when I was jumping on my parents bed and fell and cut the back of my head badly.
In the case of my birth, my parents and I have speculated that much was the fault of the negligence of the doctor in not responding earlier to my mothers symptoms, and to a simle lack of imformation about simple nutritional or wholistic methods that could have easily reversed the problem. I grieve this. However, the facts being the facts, we both would've been...not here (dead) without the advanced medical system's urgent care even after someone else in their system's cock-up. It's weird because the system that helped cause it and couldn't prevent it also corrected it, but I have always had the debt of my life owed to highly competant surgical and hospital care at a premier teaching hospital and preemie care ward, and I've also maintained a fascination with the whole "standard" art. Further, I used to assume the doctors were all mean nasty bastards and that I came into the whole under their "care," but I later learned that my mom and I had an especially incredible, competant, and very knowledgable and caring team, and that the people were far from horrible jerks at that end of the ordeal (the original doctor had more to answer for).
10. Given all this (wow), I'll always have a soft spot for hospitals, surgery, critical care, and even great doctors who are doing what they are talented at and what they want to do, at least in the case of emergencies and where medicine is really needed.
11. Finally, I wonder if I might have some place in all this, and if I could offere a good presence, doing something I loved, to help other people.
12. I want to help other people more than anything, and use whatever I've been given to do that.
13. I love emergency medicine, plain and simple.
14. Emergency medicine in my mind NEEDS to include things like acurpressure to simply and easily supress asthma attacks, and homeopathics to treat shock. But I just like emergency medicine, even though it should be more natural. ND's don't get to do a lot of that.
15. I really like to counsil people and give them nutrional advice, but I would definitely do that after surgical or other "medical" treatments to aid in their healing. ...While I can't think of anything that could've pulled the skin back together (though there might be something, perhaps an herb preparation) in my very, very deep foot wound, I don't doubt that it could've healed far, far faster after stiches if I'd had herbal ointments on it or some other form of healing treatment. Instead, I used the stupid antibiotic as they'd told me to at the hospital (which didn't fascillitate HEALING it faster at all), and my mom and I only found out by a fluke after 2-some months that bovine colostrum helped heal it incredibally faster.
Reply
Here is the reason for my "problem" and wondering if I should pursue more of an MD education as well. I realized ND's can't do surgical residencies even if they got more licensable in more states, because surgery is a "medical" art, and you need a "medical" degree to do it! So here's where I am. I'm starting to wonder how to get the correct nutritional and holistic training but also be able to perform actual medicine in the traditional form. I'm wondering about looking into my correspondence degree again for ND, esp. since you can get anatomy and all the basic medical sciences at either ND or MD school. The nice thing there is that I probably wouldn't have to do four years at both schools; I would only need those first two years' training at one place or another- if everyone was nice to each other and agreed to transfer my transcripts.
That’s it.
Thank you for your comments!
Healthnut22 aka Rachel H.
Reply
no MD school has accepted credits from an ND school. so go to MD school first. and corrispondince would be much easeier. but what about acupuncture??
Reply
Acupuncture's cool. There are so many fields to look into. Hey, thanks for your encouragement, esp. when I'm "jumping ship" so to speak....sort of.
Reply
helping people is helping people. an MD and an ND is just that... a degree... its just a peice of paper, it does not define you. I dont REALLY I know you. but I know you enough to know that you are a good person with strong principals. which ever path you take youll be happy with im sure. we need all the open minded/progressive MDs we can get. it will be fun as we both enter med school! we can help each other with homework! and when we are doctors (in a MILLION years) we can discuss cases!
namaste!
Reply
I looked into the simple, general terms of how long it will take to get a plastic surgery degree (in the encyclopedia, disonsour-style since my internet was off), and it takes 5 year residency plus the 4 years of med school. So I could be in school for another 13 years even WITHOUT any formal ND training at a school (or I could squeeze in summer courses during college). I'd be 36. Ouch. In contrast, I read a story about a liver transplant surgeon (another thing I think could be easily prevented if people were healthier), and going straight through school from college to med to the massive amount of residency (a 15-year one for major transplant surgery), she was not "out" and done with all training until she was 42. And that was the traditional route. I couldn't believe it. And then you get, what, a maximum of 15-17 years of real practice before people start thinking you're too old and outta retire? I guess you have to really, REALLY want to be a transplant surgeon..!! My mother went to graduate school when she was in her late thirties (and is currently working on a dissertation), so she was offended when I told her if I did all the schooling I was thinking of possibly doing, I wouldn't be out until I was 40. (After waiting on college for a couple years in my youth...seemed harmless enough. lol) But I actually didn't mean to offend her; I meant, unbelievably enough, to cheer her up, and let her see that her program of 5-6 years which she is almost done with would not even possible for me if I started at 38. But I guess I should've thought about her position on the whole thing before speaking. ;) And finally, I HAVE heard of of people who went into medicine later in their life to change careers or to do what they'd always wanted after half a lifetime of raising kids, so I guess where there's a will there's a way for everyone?!
I forget when you'll be going to med school and how far along in college you are. Have you done OK in the sciences so far?
TTYL!
Reply
i seem to be doing really great in physics especially. I love it.
cant wait till next semester starts!
Reply
We have a really great health food store 45 minutes away where my family buys most of our organic food and the occassional supplement (though we get those other places), and anything for natural life like natural cleaning products, etc. It's a great co-op and it's doing amazing things. I would LOVE to work there and one summer they even had openings for checkers, but I've never been able to see driving the 45 minutes daily to work there. I've often thought of it though. It would be amazing to work at a health food store for our future careers. I've read the funny stories you have about people thinking health food stores are sex shops. That doesn't happen here in the US as far as I've ever heard. There are two little health food stores in my town, but they are so independantly owned that pretty much THE workers are the owners, if you know what I mean. So first off: they never seem to need help, and second off: I find the owners a little scarey and have never tried to ask them if I could hang around their stores.
Working full time while going to school sounds like a hug thing to do. At least on the flip side it keeps you busy though. Last year, I only went to school part-time, and I think it still left too much time for me to worry and get worked up about life's little details. I would like to keep myself busy. I've thought about applying for work for during the school year, even though I will also be going to school full-time. Hmm.
I can't believe you like physics. My sister loves it, too, but it's my least favorite of all the sciences. Maybe once I actually study it I'll change my mind, since I never actually took it at all. But I don't know.
Take care!
Reply
What sort & how much training becomes blurry in the face of that.
Reply
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