I'm a bit surprised now! I didn't even realize there's something particular about Clint/Natasha hurt/comfort. But then, being with Natasha, in any kind of way contains an element of risk and danger and that is one of the aspects where Clint meets her and matches her because he's equally dangerous. He stands before her and says, look I'm not afraid of you. I can take whatever you can give because I am just like you.
Magdalene Sisters! I watched that, oh God. Whenever I watch something like that, or read about witch trials in Europe I get.... indescribable fits of rage at all that injustice. You're being treated unfairly and cruelly for one fact only - because you're a woman. Sorry I went off topic. I think long, shiny red hair, gorgeous long hair would be something precious to Natasha. and cutting it off, taking it away, would have been a clear message of "We own you, we own every bit of you" and complete dehumanization and on emotional level, a message that she just isn't safe. Or, that she might be, if she meets certain conditions. That is textbook emotional blackmail and manipulation and it can be incredibly destructive.
But... for her to be able to reclaim herself, there has to be a thread to that real self. Something that remained, something that's there to be reclaimed. If her personality was completely wiped away, she could never do what she did, leave the RR, make decisions to stop doing other people harm etc. That's why I went with this, her hair symbolizes her true self, not only the thread of red she leaves in her wake, or the thread like Ariadne's - one she uses to lure people into her labyrinth. That red thread, that's the most solid link to what and who she is. (There's also a magnificent quote about knitting with red yarn and what that symbolizes - rebuilding yourself. So yeah, it's TONS of symbolism all wrapped up in Natasha who is so many things and has so many layers and God. I LOVE THIS SERIES.)
(Also? When I started working on this, I had our hair cutting discussion and ficlets from promptathon in mind! Hair is special, hair is a living history, cutting hair and allowing someone to do that has meaning... and well, wait until we get there, to that point!)
That particularity might just be me *shrugs*. I just read other characters in hurt/comfort and i'm all 'aww, go make it better' but with these two it's '...but do it carefully/watch out' only of course whilst they're aware of how dangerous each other is that never stops them. And I like that :)
It was a painful film to watch. I get so frustrated and feel so impotent, especially when faced with things based on reality or true stories, because you're invested thanks to it being a book/film pulling you in and then it's also real. If that makes sense. I watched a film a while back with Rachel Weisz called The Whistleblower, which is a great film, but it's a true story one and the ending...I wanted to rage against the injustice.
Anything with hair cutting - V for Vendetta springs to mind. YES, the red thread not just leading Clint to her, but leading her to her, to that part of her that is self. Also a story about (red) lipstick in a concentration camp came to mind and I went looking -here's the original account and I randomly found some thoughts on it whilst I was looking as well (beware: what you would expect in an account of liberating a concentration camp).
OH, yes, the hair cutting prompts on the promptathon! <3
Yeah, they do have that "I know you're dangerous, but that doesn't scare me/won't stop me from helping you". And there are so many reasons for both of them to be careful with the other.
I have the same reaction over similar movies. Also, documentaries about Inquisition and witch hunts in Europe or Salem give me a similar feeling of impotent rage against injustice. I can't even describe how those make me feel, but just think - you could have been accused, tortured and burned to death for the crime of being a woman. It's .... my blood boils, that's what happens.
Oh God, this -
To show how fundamental this is, I draw your attention to the Belsen concentration camp, where, when it was liberated from the Germans, someone put red lipstick in the supplies, either by mistake or through a stroke of genius. The witnesses were amazed when the women began to put on the lipstick. Imagine it, gaunt, hollow eyed, near hosts wearing nothing but scraps of clothes and red lipstick. That inconsequential stick of scarletty paint gave them back their humanity. Suddenly they were no longer a number, once again they were women. It’s that fundamental.
And yet we still watch those things, heh. I think because they're often thinky and good stories, but for me also because if a film/book/arty thing can make me feel so much? That's...good. Connection. That's powerful art.
I first came across the story about Belsen and the lipstick in a Banksy book in a section titled 'Manifesto' and it struck a chord with me. (There are different thoughts on it, like the links above, and here.) I thought of it when reading red thread and I thought of it when reading Deahtless as well, at a bit I'm gonna quote to you (and Sugar quoted it on her blog too recently, I should probably say):
Do you think I am a fool, Masha? All this time, and you speak to me as though I were a flighty pinprick of a girl. I am a magician! Did you never think, even once, that I loved lpstick and rouge for more than their color alone? I am a student or their lore, and it is arcane and hermetic beyond the dreams of alchemists. Did you never wonder why I gave you so many pots, so many creams, so much perfume? [...] Cosmetics are an extention of the will. Why do you think all men paint themselves when they go to fight? When I paint my eyes to match my soup, it is not because I have nothing better to do than worry over triffles. It says, I belong here, and you will not deny me. When I streak my lips red as foxgloves, I say, Come here, male. I am your mate, and you will not deny me. When I pinch my cheeks and dust them with mother-of-pearl, I say, Death, keep off, I am your enemy, and you will not deny me. I say these things, and the world listens, Masha. Because my magic is as strong as an arm. I am never denied. (p143 in my copy)
I'm not someone who wears a lot, if any, make up. I used to have acne and I use some concearler for that when I go out. I like lip glosses and coloured lip salves. I think I look odd with lipstick and I like eye shadow but I can never be bothered to put it one when I wear glasses, which is almost always. I admire people who don't wear make up at all, because I see that as a confidence thing, to be able to show the world your face without attempting to amend it, and I'm pretty much a girl uninterested in most, or at least the details of girly things - I'd never go for a make over, for instance. But I read about Belsen and lipstick, about the power of painting a face, and I think to myself that there's a confidence in that too, in saying this is the face that I am chosing to show the world today, this is how I feel or how I am today, I am wearing myself on the outside. Kind of thing. But yeah, thinky thoughts :)
(Also, this is why I studied history to A level even though I could have taken an easier subject - the stories and the histories of real people and places that stay in your head and join other stories and form a history of their own.)
I'm the opposite from you. (I should show you my wedding photos one of these days.) But, I grew up not being able to control how I looked. It had to do with illness and where and how I was growing up during my teenage years, and I thoroughly disliked my appearance. Then, when I started studying (or in other terms, became an adult) I started reclaiming the way I looked, the length of my hair, the things I could buy and wear. You could say that I evolved from an ugly duckling into... much prettier bird. Not a swan, they're too fragile for my liking, I'm something more vicious and tougher. Now, because of the medicines I have to take every day, my skin is pretty problematic (sometimes it's not a lot, but sometimes, like now - I am having an insane phase - it looks like something where you could play connect the dots). I do not want to show that face to the world. I meet people in an office every day and I want to be my best. I can put on make up almost like a pro, and I make sure I look the best that I can all through the day. (Just few days ago a friend told me about make up primers, and they do wonders for how long your make up stays on. Awesome stuff. *G* In addition to that, I take care about my entire appearance - matching colors and styles and all of that. And I love it. I love my wardrobe, my shoes, my cosmetics. LOVE. I have colleagues who think I'm wasting my time, who think it takes awfully long to put that looks together, awful lot of effort and that doing none of that would mean I'm relaxed and my morning routine was easier. They have no idea how wrong they are. I love every bit of that, what I'm doing for myself. Final result? Nobody could ever tell I ever had any kind of health issues. OTish rant, my favorite are women who tell me "wait until you have kids, you won't care about that/won't have time to take care of yourself". uh, WRONG. my mom is exactly like me and she never ever neglected her looks. And yeah, I was a baby once.)
And I think, that is who I am, that is my chosen identity, the way I choose to look and express myself, the effort I put into it. There's nothing less authentic about painted face than unpainted one - both are messages, just different kind of messages.
I like making myself presentable and dressing up, but...it's like once I stop thinking about my appearence I forget about it. I'm just living behind my eyes and not in my body, kind of thing. Like I wear glasses that often that the odd occasion when I wear contact lenses I find myself trying to push my glasses up my nose or put them away and have a few seconds of panic when they're not there before I realise that they're not meant to be. If I look in a mirror I find many things that I don't like. But if I don't, it'll slip my mind. And when I'm with friends it's more what they make me feel like, or feel like I look like, I guess? There are people that make me comfortable to be my and the rest not matter. And then my other half makes me feel comfortable inside my own skin. Guess I just live in my head :) But I still cry PRETTY over things *grins*. Was chatting about some Avengers themed eyeshadow make-up design stuff today with a friend. It's not anything I'd ever bother to try, unless having a me day maybe, but not for not liking it, just... yeah. (Sense making lost.)
People who use kids/pregnancy etc as a reason for things: NO *head desk*.
Hmm, I don't think I meant no make up being authentic as such, rather that I hate going out without at least using a bit of concealer, brushing my hair, do I have decent clothes on, etc so people that just walk about without doing that, I admire the confidence that must take, but I'm probably personalising it because for them it just is. I guess I mean that I don't have the confidence to do that.
re powerful art - have you ever seen Band of Brothers? It's HBO's mini series about "Easy Company" how they called themselves (part of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division), based on real men and their stories. It's the only war related thing I honestly enjoy watching because it's about men, real men, and not the war as some kind of social/historical/whatever kind of phenomenon. It's about people surviving the war and their role in it, and it's powerful and beautiful and painful. In episode #9 the men find a concentration camp, somewhere in Poland, I think and that entire episode.... their reactions actually here is that entire scene from the moment when one of the soldiers comes running to find Major Winters, his CO, because the patrol has found something and they don't know what that is. And... they're men who jumped out of planes on D day, they fought all across Europe, they were freezing in Bastogne during winter, they've seen their friends wounded and killed... but they have never seen something like this. ("This" being dehumanization of the prisoners - I could go on and on about this, since it's a subject I read about extensively during my studies. Psychology of genocide and how it's possible... ) What utterly KILLS me about this scene is - when they're talking to one of the prisoners, and the CO asks "What kind of camp is this?" and one of his soldiers is translating ... and the prisoner says "Arbeitslager fur Unfervunschte" --- and they don't realize what it means, until the man explains - they're "Artzte, Musiker..." (doctors, musicians, ordinary people... and then he says Juden.) The soldier who translates the conversation is Jewish too. His reaction, his face, when he realizes that he could be, he is, one of them? It just kills me. And the thing is, US soldiers didn't know about this. During the war people didn't know what Nazi's did to Jewish and others who didn't meet their standard of "Arian race". Entire thins is just ... I have no words. This scene is so hard for me to watch, but I watch it every time.
If you haven't seen this show, I recommend watching. great cast, historical events, real people. And, like Eleven said once, we are all stories in the end, and I feel these people deserve to have their stories heard, because they fought for the world we live in today.
Re: Part twoinkvoicesFebruary 6 2013, 01:30:39 UTC
Oddly enough my Dad has seen that and he's recently started rewatching it because it's come on again. I've only caught bits of it, but it looks interesting!
I'm a bit surprised now! I didn't even realize there's something particular about Clint/Natasha hurt/comfort. But then, being with Natasha, in any kind of way contains an element of risk and danger and that is one of the aspects where Clint meets her and matches her because he's equally dangerous. He stands before her and says, look I'm not afraid of you. I can take whatever you can give because I am just like you.
Magdalene Sisters! I watched that, oh God. Whenever I watch something like that, or read about witch trials in Europe I get.... indescribable fits of rage at all that injustice. You're being treated unfairly and cruelly for one fact only - because you're a woman. Sorry I went off topic. I think long, shiny red hair, gorgeous long hair would be something precious to Natasha. and cutting it off, taking it away, would have been a clear message of "We own you, we own every bit of you" and complete dehumanization and on emotional level, a message that she just isn't safe. Or, that she might be, if she meets certain conditions. That is textbook emotional blackmail and manipulation and it can be incredibly destructive.
But... for her to be able to reclaim herself, there has to be a thread to that real self. Something that remained, something that's there to be reclaimed. If her personality was completely wiped away, she could never do what she did, leave the RR, make decisions to stop doing other people harm etc. That's why I went with this, her hair symbolizes her true self, not only the thread of red she leaves in her wake, or the thread like Ariadne's - one she uses to lure people into her labyrinth. That red thread, that's the most solid link to what and who she is. (There's also a magnificent quote about knitting with red yarn and what that symbolizes - rebuilding yourself. So yeah, it's TONS of symbolism all wrapped up in Natasha who is so many things and has so many layers and God. I LOVE THIS SERIES.)
(Also? When I started working on this, I had our hair cutting discussion and ficlets from promptathon in mind! Hair is special, hair is a living history, cutting hair and allowing someone to do that has meaning... and well, wait until we get there, to that point!)
Reply
It was a painful film to watch. I get so frustrated and feel so impotent, especially when faced with things based on reality or true stories, because you're invested thanks to it being a book/film pulling you in and then it's also real. If that makes sense. I watched a film a while back with Rachel Weisz called The Whistleblower, which is a great film, but it's a true story one and the ending...I wanted to rage against the injustice.
Anything with hair cutting - V for Vendetta springs to mind. YES, the red thread not just leading Clint to her, but leading her to her, to that part of her that is self. Also a story about (red) lipstick in a concentration camp came to mind and I went looking -here's the original account and I randomly found some thoughts on it whilst I was looking as well (beware: what you would expect in an account of liberating a concentration camp).
OH, yes, the hair cutting prompts on the promptathon! <3
Reply
I have the same reaction over similar movies. Also, documentaries about Inquisition and witch hunts in Europe or Salem give me a similar feeling of impotent rage against injustice. I can't even describe how those make me feel, but just think - you could have been accused, tortured and burned to death for the crime of being a woman. It's .... my blood boils, that's what happens.
Oh God, this -
To show how fundamental this is, I draw your attention to the Belsen concentration camp, where, when it was liberated from the Germans, someone put red lipstick in the supplies, either by mistake or through a stroke of genius. The witnesses were amazed when the women began to put on the lipstick. Imagine it, gaunt, hollow eyed, near hosts wearing nothing but scraps of clothes and red lipstick. That inconsequential stick of scarletty paint gave them back their humanity. Suddenly they were no longer a number, once again they were women. It’s that fundamental.
This, oh my God, this.
Reply
I first came across the story about Belsen and the lipstick in a Banksy book in a section titled 'Manifesto' and it struck a chord with me. (There are different thoughts on it, like the links above, and here.) I thought of it when reading red thread and I thought of it when reading Deahtless as well, at a bit I'm gonna quote to you (and Sugar quoted it on her blog too recently, I should probably say):
Do you think I am a fool, Masha? All this time, and you speak to me as though I were a flighty pinprick of a girl. I am a magician! Did you never think, even once, that I loved lpstick and rouge for more than their color alone? I am a student or their lore, and it is arcane and hermetic beyond the dreams of alchemists. Did you never wonder why I gave you so many pots, so many creams, so much perfume? [...] Cosmetics are an extention of the will. Why do you think all men paint themselves when they go to fight? When I paint my eyes to match my soup, it is not because I have nothing better to do than worry over triffles. It says, I belong here, and you will not deny me. When I streak my lips red as foxgloves, I say, Come here, male. I am your mate, and you will not deny me. When I pinch my cheeks and dust them with mother-of-pearl, I say, Death, keep off, I am your enemy, and you will not deny me. I say these things, and the world listens, Masha. Because my magic is as strong as an arm. I am never denied. (p143 in my copy)
I'm not someone who wears a lot, if any, make up. I used to have acne and I use some concearler for that when I go out. I like lip glosses and coloured lip salves. I think I look odd with lipstick and I like eye shadow but I can never be bothered to put it one when I wear glasses, which is almost always. I admire people who don't wear make up at all, because I see that as a confidence thing, to be able to show the world your face without attempting to amend it, and I'm pretty much a girl uninterested in most, or at least the details of girly things - I'd never go for a make over, for instance. But I read about Belsen and lipstick, about the power of painting a face, and I think to myself that there's a confidence in that too, in saying this is the face that I am chosing to show the world today, this is how I feel or how I am today, I am wearing myself on the outside. Kind of thing. But yeah, thinky thoughts :)
(Also, this is why I studied history to A level even though I could have taken an easier subject - the stories and the histories of real people and places that stay in your head and join other stories and form a history of their own.)
Reply
I'm the opposite from you. (I should show you my wedding photos one of these days.) But, I grew up not being able to control how I looked. It had to do with illness and where and how I was growing up during my teenage years, and I thoroughly disliked my appearance. Then, when I started studying (or in other terms, became an adult) I started reclaiming the way I looked, the length of my hair, the things I could buy and wear. You could say that I evolved from an ugly duckling into... much prettier bird. Not a swan, they're too fragile for my liking, I'm something more vicious and tougher. Now, because of the medicines I have to take every day, my skin is pretty problematic (sometimes it's not a lot, but sometimes, like now - I am having an insane phase - it looks like something where you could play connect the dots). I do not want to show that face to the world. I meet people in an office every day and I want to be my best. I can put on make up almost like a pro, and I make sure I look the best that I can all through the day. (Just few days ago a friend told me about make up primers, and they do wonders for how long your make up stays on. Awesome stuff. *G* In addition to that, I take care about my entire appearance - matching colors and styles and all of that. And I love it. I love my wardrobe, my shoes, my cosmetics. LOVE. I have colleagues who think I'm wasting my time, who think it takes awfully long to put that looks together, awful lot of effort and that doing none of that would mean I'm relaxed and my morning routine was easier. They have no idea how wrong they are. I love every bit of that, what I'm doing for myself. Final result? Nobody could ever tell I ever had any kind of health issues. OTish rant, my favorite are women who tell me "wait until you have kids, you won't care about that/won't have time to take care of yourself". uh, WRONG. my mom is exactly like me and she never ever neglected her looks. And yeah, I was a baby once.)
And I think, that is who I am, that is my chosen identity, the way I choose to look and express myself, the effort I put into it. There's nothing less authentic about painted face than unpainted one - both are messages, just different kind of messages.
Reply
People who use kids/pregnancy etc as a reason for things: NO *head desk*.
Hmm, I don't think I meant no make up being authentic as such, rather that I hate going out without at least using a bit of concealer, brushing my hair, do I have decent clothes on, etc so people that just walk about without doing that, I admire the confidence that must take, but I'm probably personalising it because for them it just is. I guess I mean that I don't have the confidence to do that.
Reply
If you haven't seen this show, I recommend watching. great cast, historical events, real people. And, like Eleven said once, we are all stories in the end, and I feel these people deserve to have their stories heard, because they fought for the world we live in today.
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