Ugh. I think pushy atheists are just as bad as if not worse than pushy religious people. I think most religious people are pushy from a good place. Lots of atheists also have a great point - for example, religious belief shouldn't get in the way of scientific discovery - but those who are trying to prove religion wrong for the sake of it are so irritating.
to be honest, i find this attitude rather unfair - how is being a pushy atheist worse than being a pushy religious person?
either way, it's someone pushing other people to accept their view point as the correct one. usually because they think the world would be a better place if everyone else agreed with them.
if i try and prove religion wrong, it isn't "for the sake of it" - it's because i think it is wrong and that the truth actually matters.
full disclaimer - yes, i am an atheist. i don't think i'm a pushy one, because i don't have the interest to lurk on forums, and don't wish to alienate my friends by pushing a view point on them - if someone isn't interested in having the discussion, pushing it on them won't help. and that true whether you are pushing atheism or religion.
obviously, there are assholes in both camps, but i do get really frustrated that it's somehow more okay to be shoving your religion down people's throats than your non-religion.
Me: those who are trying to prove religion wrong for the sake of it are so irritating.
You: if i try and prove religion wrong, it isn't "for the sake of it" - it's because i think it is wrong and that the truth actually matters.
You'll notice I didn't say everyone is doing it for the sake of it - just that those who do are annoying. I'm not accusing you of anything and actually find it a little confusing that you've read anything resembling it from what I consider a fairly clearly-worded statement. All I'm saying is that I've very, very rarely come across theists who try to convince someone of God because they're being ornery - almost all theists who've tried to convert someone in my presence have done so because they believe it's what will 'save' that person. Misguided? Some might think so. Still, to me it's sweet and even noble, even if it can come across terribly obnoxious and patronizing. By contrast, I've come across many an atheist who will try to prove religion wrong for the sake of somehow proving themselves intellectually
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obviously i can't speak to your experience. people don't try to convert me very often, one way or the other.
i objected to the statement "pushy atheists are just as bad as if not worse than pushy religious people", because i do strongly disagree.
it's obviously a subjective judgement, but i personally find pushy religious people pretty damn offensive. i think it's deeply presumptuous to tell someone that you are going to "save" them, and a lot of the most pushy people are the "you'll burn in hell" variety. which i find deeply morally disturbing. and plenty of this type also are more interested in their own superiority and rightness than in notions of charity.
and, of course, i've never met a single atheist who tried to convince someone for the reasons you've mentioned. i believe they exist, but i'm having to imagine it as i've never experienced it.
of course, it may be it's just because i happen to agree with the other side. so i'm biased.
Don't get me wrong; I think there's something deeply offensive about someone saying, for example, "Jesus is life", to a known atheist, because the insinuation is "and you do not know life". Trying to convert anyone to anything is inherently patronizing because rarely is it done with openness to the view that the other person might actually be right or know more than you. That said, I think you're right; we're each biased by our own sides. When someone asks me if I've been saved I can say "that's sweet, but yes, actually, I have" whereas you might (and be within your rights to) find it rude. By contrast, when an atheist tries to prove to me that God doesn't exist I will often get frustrated and ask why it matters so much to them what I believe in, since they're clearly not trying to save my eternal soul, whereas you... I don't know, might have a really good discussion with them instead
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Heh, pardon my delay in replying to this facinating discussion, I was watching Datenshi ;)
I think zealots on both sides of the theist/atheist debate are equally obnoxious, and pushing one's opinions on others is rather reprehensible. Personally I feel we should all be able to sit down, shut up and get along, but I also realize there is something in the human condition that prevents that. I think it's the need to be 'right', when I'm not sure that one can be right on such things.
Things can be true and not true at the same time. There are folk who have problems with this concept.
Personally my issue with atheist zealotry versus theist zealotry is that most of the religious zealots I've encountered are easy to write off because they're often stupid or at least grossly misinformed about their own religion. I'm talking Bible thumpers who quote passages without having read the full Bible, or even the passages around what they're quoting. People who get their ideas and opinions only from their pastors and talk radio. Maybe it's my
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or, every time a theist converts someone, reason is set back a little more, and one more person is out there encouraging people to waste their time and energy on religion, and teaching their children to do the same
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either way, it's someone pushing other people to accept their view point as the correct one. usually because they think the world would be a better place if everyone else agreed with them.
if i try and prove religion wrong, it isn't "for the sake of it" - it's because i think it is wrong and that the truth actually matters.
full disclaimer - yes, i am an atheist. i don't think i'm a pushy one, because i don't have the interest to lurk on forums, and don't wish to alienate my friends by pushing a view point on them - if someone isn't interested in having the discussion, pushing it on them won't help. and that true whether you are pushing atheism or religion.
obviously, there are assholes in both camps, but i do get really frustrated that it's somehow more okay to be shoving your religion down people's throats than your non-religion.
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You: if i try and prove religion wrong, it isn't "for the sake of it" - it's because i think it is wrong and that the truth actually matters.
You'll notice I didn't say everyone is doing it for the sake of it - just that those who do are annoying. I'm not accusing you of anything and actually find it a little confusing that you've read anything resembling it from what I consider a fairly clearly-worded statement. All I'm saying is that I've very, very rarely come across theists who try to convince someone of God because they're being ornery - almost all theists who've tried to convert someone in my presence have done so because they believe it's what will 'save' that person. Misguided? Some might think so. Still, to me it's sweet and even noble, even if it can come across terribly obnoxious and patronizing. By contrast, I've come across many an atheist who will try to prove religion wrong for the sake of somehow proving themselves intellectually ( ... )
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i objected to the statement "pushy atheists are just as bad as if not worse than pushy religious people", because i do strongly disagree.
it's obviously a subjective judgement, but i personally find pushy religious people pretty damn offensive. i think it's deeply presumptuous to tell someone that you are going to "save" them, and a lot of the most pushy people are the "you'll burn in hell" variety. which i find deeply morally disturbing. and plenty of this type also are more interested in their own superiority and rightness than in notions of charity.
and, of course, i've never met a single atheist who tried to convince someone for the reasons you've mentioned. i believe they exist, but i'm having to imagine it as i've never experienced it.
of course, it may be it's just because i happen to agree with the other side. so i'm biased.
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I think zealots on both sides of the theist/atheist debate are equally obnoxious, and pushing one's opinions on others is rather reprehensible. Personally I feel we should all be able to sit down, shut up and get along, but I also realize there is something in the human condition that prevents that. I think it's the need to be 'right', when I'm not sure that one can be right on such things.
Things can be true and not true at the same time. There are folk who have problems with this concept.
Personally my issue with atheist zealotry versus theist zealotry is that most of the religious zealots I've encountered are easy to write off because they're often stupid or at least grossly misinformed about their own religion. I'm talking Bible thumpers who quote passages without having read the full Bible, or even the passages around what they're quoting. People who get their ideas and opinions only from their pastors and talk radio. Maybe it's my ( ... )
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