And oddity in hating characters
I find it fascinating that people hate characters for what they do as if they are real people. I was thinking specifically of Gwen from Torchwood. I mentioned that I hated her as a character because she was written one way (cop) and she was written as a Mary Sue who can't seem to stop remorseless killers from running on her knife or press the
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She did, but every single character in the main Torchwood cast (outside of Rhys) has done far worse things in the series. It's not really a valid reason to hate her unless you hate everyone else.
Imo.
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Then again, nobody hates Jack for doing it to Gwen in the first episode...
My approach to Torchwood is to pretend it started with S2. They basically redo everyone's character arc but better, and the characters are tweaked to become likeable (the change in Ianto is miraculous).
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But really you could make a list of terrible-things-people-in-the-cast-have-done, and none of them would be off it (save perhaps Rhys).
I definitely agree that the characters become a lot more likable in S2.
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Of course, I would venture that the narrative's demand that we LOVE Gwen is part of the hate.
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You would be correct. RTD meant for Gwen Cooper to be "the audience's POV character" and his constant pushing of her got old fast.
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Jack wasn't retconning Gwen to hide how he was cheating on her with someone else. He retconned her to protect Torchwood's secrecy.
My approach to Torchwood is to pretend it started with S2.
I liked first season best, it's the only one to feature an episode that was Hugo nominated. I also like a lot of season two. I refer to them as Classic Torchwood versus the later subtitled series. I hated Children of Earth, and never watched Miracle Day. Jack couldn't get me to watch it.
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Does S1 really have more award prestige than Children of Earth?
Miracle Day wasn't great, you didn't miss much.
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The keywords there are "if" and "in principle." I don't object to Gwen's using retcon because I object to the use of retcon "in principal." Retcon basically was created to mind wipe people with or without their consent for their safety and the safety of the planet. I object to why Gwen used the retcon on Rhys, and how the writers let the whole storyline of her cheating on Rhys end there.
...especially since Torchwood's secrecy is clearly a big joke...
Torchwood failing to be a secret does not make Jack's making some effort to have it be a secret invalid. If Children of Earth is taken as a continuation of Classic Torchwood it proved how important it was for Torchwood to be a secret.
Does S1 really have more award prestige than Children of Earth?
I would say it got more prestigious attention. CoE did actually win some awards, but they were from lesser organizations than the Hugos.
Miracle Day wasn't great, you didn't miss much.Considering Children of Earth ( ... )
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However, I really like Tony Soprano and Walter White and Don Draper and these are terrible terrible human beings. Amazing characters however.
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That would definitely be in your opinion. I don't agree in the least that "every single character in the main Torchwood cast (outside of Rhys) has done far worse" than Gwen's cheating on Rhys with Owen, telling Rhys about it, and then retconning Rhys so he can't even remember her having made the admission much less committed the affair. Not to mention I don't appreciate your defending one character by not just tearing down one other character, but by trashing the entire rest of the cast.
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I can point out when other characters do something that I think is morally wrong without trashing them, and especially in the first season, the TW cast does a lot of that. I DO think Gwen is intended to be the closest the series has to a moral compass though, and what she did do is presented as a big mistake that she feels very bad about, but is afraid of revealing the truth over (very human). I wasn't huge on Gwen after S1, but I think they really came around with her character in S2. But hey, you're a member of anti-Gwen allies (no I didn't check, it's just a comm I have lj-noted), so I'm not sure why I'm even bothering with a reply.
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How much you do or don't like Gwen Cooper is not the measure of whether or not you are "remotely trashing the rest of the cast." The measure is whether or not you claim--as you did--that,"every single character in the main Torchwood cast (outside of Rhys) has done far worse." That is trashing the rest of the cast. It is placing Gwen above them as the "moral compass" which she isn't. RTD could call her that all he liked. It hardly made it so, any more than your trashing the rest of the cast as having done "far worse" makes it so.
I can point out when other characters do something that I think is morally wrong without trashing them.
You weren't merely "pointing out" how you think the other characters have done things you think are "morally wrong." You were putting them down saying "every single character in the main Torchwood cast ... has done far worse." I'm not going to ask what ( ... )
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...Try bland statement of fact, actually. Your standard for trashing is very low.
Off the top of my head, Owen is a rapist. There, someone who is worse than Gwen.
The OP (who I'm aware has been banned) was confused as to why fans become personally offended with the things Gwen (but only Gwen) does, when usually we don't demand fictional characters be 'good', only well-written. The other characters in Torchwood were brought up as an example of this principle - all of them are morally ambiguous, but for most people this is viewed as a plus not a minus, because it makes the characters compelling. (And then we detoured into how none of the Torchwood characters actually become compelling until we're out of S1 anyway, but w/e.) Does this make more sense now?
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