Finally addressing one of the main reasons I joined this comm in the first place!
I've been meaning to do a post like this for a while, because Ghinius is both my favorite fictional character of all time and by far the most despised character from Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team. Hell, I'd say he's one of the top 15 most loathed names in the Universal Century, period. Needless to say, I don't quite agree with some of the reasoning and intensity of my fandom's hatred of him.
First, some direct quotes harvested from random forum posts Google bestowed upon me. Names and locations have been left out for obvious reasons.
"Ginias is the worst main antagonist in all of Gundam. He's just a stock
raving lunatic bad guy. No motivation for his actions or development at
all. Even the Frost Brothers from Gundam X had a better motivation for
causing the main characters in their show so much trouble. And their
reasons were pretty stupid. Everyone knows that the characters in Gundam F-
91 are underdeveloped but, damn, Karuzo Ronah would've pimp slapped Ginias
Sakhalin upside the head big time. In short, Ginias is a bad character."
First, I will acknowledge Ghinius isn't an easy character to understand. I've been obsessing over him for over nine years now and there are some things about him I've only recently wrapped my head around. That said, I think he's far from a character with "No motivation for his actions or development at all". Unlike most other Gundam villains, his motivations are emotion-based rather than a combination of logic and amorality. His fanatical devotion to the Apsaras and the crimes he commits to "protect" it are a result of him coping (very badly) with Aina's "betrayal". He clung to the Apsaras as the one thing that couldn't abandon him, and unfortunately everything else (including his his own well being) stopped registering as a concern in his mind. No, it doesn't make "sense", but that's part if what mental illness is. A person's mind distorting the world around them in ways that don't make sense. Doesn't mean he's a flat character, just a bit different than the usual Gundam villain.
And I'm no literary expert, but it seems to me that a gradual descent into madness should count as some form of development.
"You liked Gineas!!! How can you like that jerk!??"
PROTIP: not everyone has the same tastes. Would the notion that some people like chocolate instead of strawberry be just as shocking to your poor heart?
And here's a lovely tidbit in response to the idea that he's insane, not evil:
"That just makes him all the more shallow and uninteresting a character to virtually all who watch the show."
Sorry dude, you =/= everyone who's ever watched 08th MS Team. Honestly one of the reasons why I like him so damn much is because I find villains whose misdeeds have roots in mental illness instead of just being evil fascinating. I know I'm not the only one, either. Guess we don't count as valid audience members, though, with our weird freaky opinions and going against the fandom mainstream and all :/
I couldn't find direct quotes to illustrate all the next few points, but believe me my paraphrases aren't far off from some of the things I've seen people spouting throughout the years.
1. "He's such a horrible traitorous asshole! He stabs his own men in the back and shoots his sister! He's a huge disgrace to noble Zeon heroes like Gato, Ranba Ral, and Char!"
I can't deny Ghinius's teamkilling and attempted sororicide, and that some people will dislike him for it no matter what. However, what really bothers me about this kind of post is the fact that even though Ghinius's actions make him the scum of the Universal Century, the fanbrats has no problem with Char Aznable. Char went out of his way to backstab and murder a sweet guy who considered him his best friend, and then laughed about it and mocked his funeral. And later went on to do the same thing to the guys' sister for no reason other than to satisfy his self-righteous vendetta against their family (which they had nothing to do with since they were kids when it all went down). And that's just from Mobile Suit Gundam, Char uses and hurts many other people up through CCA (including a thirteen year-old girl). Yet for some reason only Ghinius' backstabbing and betrayal of others is a problem. Char is a wonderful and noble hero even though he pulls the same kind of shit and worse.
Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe I'm detecting large quantities of fanbutt hypocrisy in this sector.
2. "He treats his men and his sister like tools! He's such a selfish prick!"
Again, I can't deny this. However, to me he seems to have little regard for his own well-being as well that of others in the end. Considering he stopped taking the medications he needed to stay healthy and ended up collapsing on the ground, bleeding from the mouth and appearing to have all the body fat and muscle of an anorexic whippet in the last episode, I'd say his own life probably wasn't priority #1 at that point either. It sounds a bit cold, but in a way he wasn't treating others terribly different than he treated himself. IMHO that's actually a pretty sad situation, and really says a lot about what could've made him the way he is. And believe me, personal experience has taught me that living with a mindset that distorted isn't fun. No one asks to become that mentally ill, and it can take years of therapy and treatment to break free from that kind of thinking. No, it doesn't justify what he did at all, but I think it's something more people should consider before completely condemning him for that reason.
3. "He made the hospital ship get shot down in episode 11!"
Yes, because he magically gained the authority to order around Federation mobile suits, lemme' tell ya. I love how fanbrats try to blame Ghinius first and foremost for something a certain less-than-ethical Federation Colonel ordered. Sure, he did fire at those few GMs first, but there's a world of difference between taking out a few armed combatants and ordering a sniper to shoot down a ship full of unarmed people trying to escape to safety. Yes, Ghinius broke the cease-fire Aina set up, but I have my doubts Col. Ryer would've stuck to it either. And Ryer was the one who chose to shoot the ship in retaliation to Ghinius's actions instead of a less horrifically illegal target (like, say THE HUGE FRIKKIN' MOBILE ARMOR THAT'S VERY MUCH A THREAT TO YOU/YOUR FORCES). Ghinius's move wasn't smart by any means, but by then his grasp on reality was pretty debatable at best and he sure as hell can't take all the blame for something he didn't even do.
4. "He's an over-controlling bastard who made his sister miserable! And an incestuous creep!"
I admit, if there's one thing harder to understand than Ghinius himself it's his relationship with Aina. Yes, he is very controlling of her, but there's no hard evidence he's a sadistic wife-beater who threatened and raped and kicked her pet hamsters since the day she was born (like some fan-ramblings and fics might lead you to believe). In fact, going by their first few scenes together he's generally pretty kind if a bit overprotective of her. The main problem seems to be that he's become dependent on her as his entire support network in a way that reeks of codependency. Any venture into mental health/drug addiction support material will tell you that codependency is a very, very unhealthy thing for all parties involved (despite what they might think). While pre-breakdown!Ghinius thinks he's helping Aina by having his life revolve around hers, and pre-Shiro!Aina thinks waiting on Ghinius hand and foot is the right think to do for that sickly brother of hers, they've actually worked themselves into a hole that's very damaging and restrictive for both of them. There's a reason Aina almost mindlessly dived into a relationship with a guy she barely knew just because he gave her feelings some consideration, and that Ghinius's breakdown seemed to coincide with her becoming notably less interested in helping him *hint hint*
Was the way he treated Aina 100% right? No. Was he the sole cause of her and everyone else's misery? Absolutely not. No one is completely blamable or innocent in that kind of situation. Her life without him isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows either, if you take her as being a somewhat complex and flawed character. In fact, there's a good chance Aina'd have a whole new set of issues and misery to deal with after the events of the Shuddering Mountain. If she didn't, she'd fit the criteria for being a sociopath.
And there's about as much canon support of them being literally incestuous as there is for Ghinius secretly longing for hawtyaoimansexomg with Yuri (that is to say, little if any).
5. "He's so lame! He's boring and not a cool ace and useless and his mobile armors suck and he's nowhere near as awesome as Char or Gato or Haman or whatever, whine whine whine no one should like him Sieg Zeon! >:O "
Without repeating some of the other points I've made, there is no character that'll be hated by everyone in the audience. Even if there was, Ghinius sure wouldn't be it. He's always going to be an acquired taste, but that doesn't mean no one will or should like him. That's an incredibly ignorant and hateful mindset to take. Yeah, sure, he might not fit into what makes you like a character, but to someone else he could be one of the most important 2-dimensional drawings they've ever seen. It doesn't make their opinions or tastes any less valid than yours, either. Plus he fills an irreplaceable role in the story, whether you accept it or not.
And you gotta' admit, he's not the worst looking guy either ;)
Holy giant posts Batman! Totally not the tl;dr of a fangirl with waay too much time on her hands! :O
First, some direct quotes harvested from random forum posts Google bestowed upon me. Names and locations have been left out for obvious reasons.
"Ginias is the worst main antagonist in all of Gundam. He's just a stock
raving lunatic bad guy. No motivation for his actions or development at
all. Even the Frost Brothers from Gundam X had a better motivation for
causing the main characters in their show so much trouble. And their
reasons were pretty stupid. Everyone knows that the characters in Gundam F-
91 are underdeveloped but, damn, Karuzo Ronah would've pimp slapped Ginias
Sakhalin upside the head big time. In short, Ginias is a bad character."
First, I will acknowledge Ghinius isn't an easy character to understand. I've been obsessing over him for over nine years now and there are some things about him I've only recently wrapped my head around. That said, I think he's far from a character with "No motivation for his actions or development at all". Unlike most other Gundam villains, his motivations are emotion-based rather than a combination of logic and amorality. His fanatical devotion to the Apsaras and the crimes he commits to "protect" it are a result of him coping (very badly) with Aina's "betrayal". He clung to the Apsaras as the one thing that couldn't abandon him, and unfortunately everything else (including his his own well being) stopped registering as a concern in his mind. No, it doesn't make "sense", but that's part if what mental illness is. A person's mind distorting the world around them in ways that don't make sense. Doesn't mean he's a flat character, just a bit different than the usual Gundam villain.
And I'm no literary expert, but it seems to me that a gradual descent into madness should count as some form of development.
"You liked Gineas!!! How can you like that jerk!??"
PROTIP: not everyone has the same tastes. Would the notion that some people like chocolate instead of strawberry be just as shocking to your poor heart?
And here's a lovely tidbit in response to the idea that he's insane, not evil:
"That just makes him all the more shallow and uninteresting a character to virtually all who watch the show."
Sorry dude, you =/= everyone who's ever watched 08th MS Team. Honestly one of the reasons why I like him so damn much is because I find villains whose misdeeds have roots in mental illness instead of just being evil fascinating. I know I'm not the only one, either. Guess we don't count as valid audience members, though, with our weird freaky opinions and going against the fandom mainstream and all :/
I couldn't find direct quotes to illustrate all the next few points, but believe me my paraphrases aren't far off from some of the things I've seen people spouting throughout the years.
1. "He's such a horrible traitorous asshole! He stabs his own men in the back and shoots his sister! He's a huge disgrace to noble Zeon heroes like Gato, Ranba Ral, and Char!"
I can't deny Ghinius's teamkilling and attempted sororicide, and that some people will dislike him for it no matter what. However, what really bothers me about this kind of post is the fact that even though Ghinius's actions make him the scum of the Universal Century, the fanbrats has no problem with Char Aznable. Char went out of his way to backstab and murder a sweet guy who considered him his best friend, and then laughed about it and mocked his funeral. And later went on to do the same thing to the guys' sister for no reason other than to satisfy his self-righteous vendetta against their family (which they had nothing to do with since they were kids when it all went down). And that's just from Mobile Suit Gundam, Char uses and hurts many other people up through CCA (including a thirteen year-old girl). Yet for some reason only Ghinius' backstabbing and betrayal of others is a problem. Char is a wonderful and noble hero even though he pulls the same kind of shit and worse.
Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe I'm detecting large quantities of fanbutt hypocrisy in this sector.
2. "He treats his men and his sister like tools! He's such a selfish prick!"
Again, I can't deny this. However, to me he seems to have little regard for his own well-being as well that of others in the end. Considering he stopped taking the medications he needed to stay healthy and ended up collapsing on the ground, bleeding from the mouth and appearing to have all the body fat and muscle of an anorexic whippet in the last episode, I'd say his own life probably wasn't priority #1 at that point either. It sounds a bit cold, but in a way he wasn't treating others terribly different than he treated himself. IMHO that's actually a pretty sad situation, and really says a lot about what could've made him the way he is. And believe me, personal experience has taught me that living with a mindset that distorted isn't fun. No one asks to become that mentally ill, and it can take years of therapy and treatment to break free from that kind of thinking. No, it doesn't justify what he did at all, but I think it's something more people should consider before completely condemning him for that reason.
3. "He made the hospital ship get shot down in episode 11!"
Yes, because he magically gained the authority to order around Federation mobile suits, lemme' tell ya. I love how fanbrats try to blame Ghinius first and foremost for something a certain less-than-ethical Federation Colonel ordered. Sure, he did fire at those few GMs first, but there's a world of difference between taking out a few armed combatants and ordering a sniper to shoot down a ship full of unarmed people trying to escape to safety. Yes, Ghinius broke the cease-fire Aina set up, but I have my doubts Col. Ryer would've stuck to it either. And Ryer was the one who chose to shoot the ship in retaliation to Ghinius's actions instead of a less horrifically illegal target (like, say THE HUGE FRIKKIN' MOBILE ARMOR THAT'S VERY MUCH A THREAT TO YOU/YOUR FORCES). Ghinius's move wasn't smart by any means, but by then his grasp on reality was pretty debatable at best and he sure as hell can't take all the blame for something he didn't even do.
4. "He's an over-controlling bastard who made his sister miserable! And an incestuous creep!"
I admit, if there's one thing harder to understand than Ghinius himself it's his relationship with Aina. Yes, he is very controlling of her, but there's no hard evidence he's a sadistic wife-beater who threatened and raped and kicked her pet hamsters since the day she was born (like some fan-ramblings and fics might lead you to believe). In fact, going by their first few scenes together he's generally pretty kind if a bit overprotective of her. The main problem seems to be that he's become dependent on her as his entire support network in a way that reeks of codependency. Any venture into mental health/drug addiction support material will tell you that codependency is a very, very unhealthy thing for all parties involved (despite what they might think). While pre-breakdown!Ghinius thinks he's helping Aina by having his life revolve around hers, and pre-Shiro!Aina thinks waiting on Ghinius hand and foot is the right think to do for that sickly brother of hers, they've actually worked themselves into a hole that's very damaging and restrictive for both of them. There's a reason Aina almost mindlessly dived into a relationship with a guy she barely knew just because he gave her feelings some consideration, and that Ghinius's breakdown seemed to coincide with her becoming notably less interested in helping him *hint hint*
Was the way he treated Aina 100% right? No. Was he the sole cause of her and everyone else's misery? Absolutely not. No one is completely blamable or innocent in that kind of situation. Her life without him isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows either, if you take her as being a somewhat complex and flawed character. In fact, there's a good chance Aina'd have a whole new set of issues and misery to deal with after the events of the Shuddering Mountain. If she didn't, she'd fit the criteria for being a sociopath.
And there's about as much canon support of them being literally incestuous as there is for Ghinius secretly longing for hawtyaoimansexomg with Yuri (that is to say, little if any).
5. "He's so lame! He's boring and not a cool ace and useless and his mobile armors suck and he's nowhere near as awesome as Char or Gato or Haman or whatever, whine whine whine no one should like him Sieg Zeon! >:O "
Without repeating some of the other points I've made, there is no character that'll be hated by everyone in the audience. Even if there was, Ghinius sure wouldn't be it. He's always going to be an acquired taste, but that doesn't mean no one will or should like him. That's an incredibly ignorant and hateful mindset to take. Yeah, sure, he might not fit into what makes you like a character, but to someone else he could be one of the most important 2-dimensional drawings they've ever seen. It doesn't make their opinions or tastes any less valid than yours, either. Plus he fills an irreplaceable role in the story, whether you accept it or not.
And you gotta' admit, he's not the worst looking guy either ;)
Holy giant posts Batman! Totally not the tl;dr of a fangirl with waay too much time on her hands! :O