Is he known in Poland, too? I think he might be more known ~20 years ago than now, though it always was a niche popularity, just among fantasy fans. I think in recent weeks I've seen someone mentioning him on some forum as an example of "retelling from bad guys POV". (Might or might not be a Polish forum, though. *scratches head* You know, one of those "can't remember what language I read it in" cases. o_______o)
Because I feel like sci-fi WAS seen as a legitimate genre in Russia (and I assume Poland, if Lem was as popular there as he was in the USSR?) I confirm, for the whole paragraph. On one hand sci-fi was "plaything", on the other side it was "still better than fantasy" and easier to associate with Big Themes. However, there also always was that shift of the perspective waiting behind the corner - sci-fi = plaything, but good sci-fi = actually mainstream, and then it usually was called "alegorical", "surrealistic", "grotesque" and such; anything but the genre name. Lem was maybe the only author regarded as a top tier writer while still being undeniably sci-fi, because it was impossible to deny him quality and at the same time that his writing was as sci-fi as it gets. The guy put robots in titles, for sanity's sake, come on! And that his sci-fi was what made him top tier, so it couldn't possibly be framed as "and he also dabbled in less serious genres" or "played with writing on the side of his academic career". Conversely, this "not seriousness" was also what made sci-fi a popular if still niche vessel for political criticism, the same way as it worked with cabarets and rock music. Fantasy not so much, because it developed too late for it - Wiedźmin was one of the first cases of its modern form (aka post-Tolkien/not-19c.).
(Today I've seen on a forum someone saying about Eastern European fantasy taking itself too seriously, so I confirm, it's not just your impression. I'm still not necessarily sharing it, unless it takes the form of overdone & overtalked pomposity, then yes, I hate it.)
but good sci-fi = actually mainstream, and then it usually was called "alegorical", "surrealistic", "grotesque" and such; anything but the genre name
I concur for Russia, except that "fantastika" was a respected enough name in itself -- because it was assumed to stand for "allegory", "surrealism", etc.
On the other hand, there are works that I would map onto fantasy that definitely never got called that, like Master i Margarita (I mean, how is that not the same genre as Good Omens?) -- because there wasn't even a name for it. (I should've asked, actually, what is fantasy called in Polish? Because in Russian it's "фэнтези, so you can tell it's of very modern vintage)
And I should say, if one is a Tolkien or a Bulgakov (or a Pratchett), and actually has profound things to say, and the style of the work fits it, I have no problem with fantasy taking itself seriously -- though I still think usually long philosophical digressions are not necessary. It's more that authors who don't necessarily have anything truly profound to say still insist on saying it at length because it seems a staple of the genre in Eastern European fantasy. (Which is to say, I think you and I are fundamentally in agreement on this score :)
fantasy that definitely never got called that, like Master i Margarita (I mean, how is that not the same genre as Good Omens?) Exactly.
what is fantasy called in Polish? Mostly copied English with Polish mixed in. A typical bookstore or library has a section/bookcase/whole wall of "fantastyka" (so, speculative fiction in general), and within this there are recognized (more in discussions and reviews than physically on the shelf) those three main ones, with sub-subgenres: 1. Science-fiction or, if one wants to be academical about it, fantastyka naukowa, so literally scientific fantasy; btw, we don't shorten it, like there's science-fiction and sci-fi or sf, but only fantastyka naukowa and no fan-nauk or anything. 2. Fantasy (just that, no other general Polish term). 3. Horror or (rarely) fantastyka grozy (fantasy of dread). Sub-subgenres are recognized, but mostly by English terms. Some cases of Polish ones in use are fantastyka socjologiczna/militarna/katastroficzna/postapokaliptyczna/humorystyczna... I guess I don't need to explain them. :D Space opera got calqued as opera kosmiczna. Urban fantasy or cyberpunk only got polonized in pronounciation (I think), while science-fiction not even that. One thing that seems to be either entirely Polish or so unimportant in English that it got no popular English names is fantastyka bliskiego/dalekiego zasięgu (sci-fi of the short/long range). The former is typically something imaginable in a few years or tomorrow; Weir's "The Martian" very much counts in. The latter is typically something super sophisticated and set at least centuries ahead. All this said, I'm somewhat rusty on current meta discourse, so this is maybe ~20-10 years old. :) Btw, fandom as a word has been in use here for at least ~30-40 years, but back in the day it meant speculative fiction fans in general - people that read the genre, organized first clubs and cons, made first printed zines and so on. Also, in huge part it was made of the authors themselves. Some traces of it are still there - phpbb forums that are still feebly kicking somewhat, populated by guys and gals with stacks of books and translations under their belts. The meaning "fans of franchise X" came only later. So, when I said "the old fandom" here, I meant that, not just "old fans of Witcher", because back in the day that meant the same - if you were in the fandom, you also knew Wiedźmin. You read Wiedźmin because you knew about it by being a fantasy (fantastyka) fan in general, and the other way around - "I've read Witcher and then discovered there is a whole genre like this and people gather around it" was much rarer, I think, though of course everyone had some point of entry at first.
authors who don't necessarily have anything truly profound to say still insist on saying it at length ...because they're actually convinced they do have it. :D And since having it is a must, it becomes a causal loop... Btw, I remember we talked once about how homo sovieticus and corpo-rat are actually quite similar mindsets/realities, and now it occured to me that here we have another kind-of-a-parallel: "literature has a mission"and Tumblr-ish mentality. In both, everything is (and must be) educating and representative, both have an overgrown conviction of self-importance, both think the reader's mind can be shaped like a topiary bush and it's creator's holy duty to do it, and so on.
I'm not sure about modern shelving, but to my mind, in Russian, "fantastika" would be just a shorter way of saying "nauchnaya fatastika" (the official way of saying it) and would not, I think, include fantasy. I think it is abbreviated as NF, but I might be making that up... And your subcategorization makes me realize I have no idea how to say "horror" in Russian as a genre, or whether it's even a thing...
I don't think I've heard the fantasy subgenres referred to in Russian at all...
or so unimportant in English that it got no popular English names is fantastyka bliskiego/dalekiego zasięgu (sci-fi of the short/long range
I actually have heard the English terms "far future SF" and "near future SF", but in my experience that's the kin of thing you find in blurbs and reviews, not as official subgenre categorization.
Btw, fandom as a word has been in use here for at least ~30-40 years, but back in the day it meant speculative fiction fans in general - people that read the genre, organized first clubs and cons, made first printed zines and so on.
Oh, interesting! So like in English, then, if not quite for as long as in the US.
and now it occured to me that here we have another kind-of-a-parallel: "literature has a mission"and Tumblr-ish mentality. In both, everything is (and must be) educating and representative, both have an overgrown conviction of self-importance, both think the reader's mind can be shaped like a topiary bush and it's creator's holy duty to do it, and so on.
Ooh, that's a really neat point actually! I can definitely see those parallels! (and dislike both manifestations of this thing, as you know.)
And your subcategorization makes me realize I have no idea how to say "horror" in Russian as a genre, or whether it's even a thing... Huh, that's actually surprising. Russia has such horror potential it could be for horror what Scandinavia is for crime. It could easily grow own subgenres. Taiga gothic... :)
"far future SF" and "near future SF" Ah, thanks! I was sure it must be a thing, just apparently too little discussed to find names easily.
(and dislike both manifestations of this thing, as you know.) In Polish we call it "smrodek dydaktyczny" (didactic stenchie?) and it's a name much older than Internet. ;)
Heh, true! And I'm sure creepy stuff gets written (I don't read horror, so I wouldn't know), and there's some tradition of it, e.g. Viy, which scared the hell out of me as a child, when my mother would read the stories aloud.
I had to click around a long time in Wiki categories before finding a name for the genre: literature of horror, but it sure doesn't seem to be used much in everyday conversation.
"smrodek dydaktyczny"
Heh! I understand it with Russian, actually, because -- and I feel like we might've talked about that already? -- "smrad" is used in Russian, too, as an archaic sort of word). Although I don't know that it would be used with a diminutive, I've definitely not heard that.
"I mean, technically it has no vampires in it, and technically it isn't exactly imperial either, more like time jumping everywhere, but trust me, it still makes better imperial vamps than 'Yekaterina's Fangs' ever got close to." "...You know, I kind of hoped for the bar set somewhat higher. Also, I almost managed to forget it, thanks a lot..." "Oh, come on, it's not like we can have everything on the 'White Nights' level, can we?"
"For the record, I'm really glad we finally got something, anything else that Yakut spooks again, but how do we call it now? Evenk spooks? It's just one book, it doesn't make a genre." "Have you seen how it's selling? Just wait a year... This said, it's still as much Yakut spooks as it gets, so why bother with new names, everyone will know what you mean." "So, what, are we going to say whenever something like this comes up 'It's Yakut spooks, but with no Yakut spooks'?" "Well, when you put it like this..."
"It's not taiga gothic, it's tundra gothic. There's only some trees in the last chapter. At least, if it was some tiger that ate him instead of that white mishka..." "Meh, details, you're hairsplitting." "Me hairsplitting? If you want to see hairsplitting, try talking with that guy with a yenot icon, whatwashisname..." "You mean, what he said about summer and winter subsubgenres? Actually, I thought he had some good points." "Yeah, well, but recently he mentioned something about months..."
"Panelpunk without a scowling neighbour babushka just doesn't count." "Not like I disagree, but it's just so predictable with them being always the first victim. What if, in the end, she turned out actually..." "..." "Wait, you were planning to write it?" "Nah, now I'll just find something else to twist."
(I'm writing fanfiction not even for but about a fandom that probably isn't even there... Is it meta meta meta already, or just meta meta? o____o)
literature of horror, but it sure doesn't seem to be used much in everyday conversation. And it makes an impression like it used to be viewed higher (closer to mainstream?) in the past than now. I'm not sure if it was the case here, too, but I'd say there was something like a first era around the Interwar (which is rediscovered right now and republished as vintage), then it was the "degenerate western trash", and now it's a thing again, though still mid-way from "trash" to "real literature". Interestingly, we have an author or three in it that are actually respected by the mainstream, even if not the whole genre. And once in a while it goes the other way - a mainstream author putting a toe in the genre.
I feel like we might've talked about that already? I remembered telling ikel89 about it once, but wasn't sure if you were around that time. :D
I think he might be more known ~20 years ago than now, though it always was a niche popularity, just among fantasy fans. I think in recent weeks I've seen someone mentioning him on some forum as an example of "retelling from bad guys POV". (Might or might not be a Polish forum, though. *scratches head* You know, one of those "can't remember what language I read it in" cases. o_______o)
Because I feel like sci-fi WAS seen as a legitimate genre in Russia (and I assume Poland, if Lem was as popular there as he was in the USSR?)
I confirm, for the whole paragraph. On one hand sci-fi was "plaything", on the other side it was "still better than fantasy" and easier to associate with Big Themes. However, there also always was that shift of the perspective waiting behind the corner - sci-fi = plaything, but good sci-fi = actually mainstream, and then it usually was called "alegorical", "surrealistic", "grotesque" and such; anything but the genre name. Lem was maybe the only author regarded as a top tier writer while still being undeniably sci-fi, because it was impossible to deny him quality and at the same time that his writing was as sci-fi as it gets. The guy put robots in titles, for sanity's sake, come on! And that his sci-fi was what made him top tier, so it couldn't possibly be framed as "and he also dabbled in less serious genres" or "played with writing on the side of his academic career".
Conversely, this "not seriousness" was also what made sci-fi a popular if still niche vessel for political criticism, the same way as it worked with cabarets and rock music. Fantasy not so much, because it developed too late for it - Wiedźmin was one of the first cases of its modern form (aka post-Tolkien/not-19c.).
(Today I've seen on a forum someone saying about Eastern European fantasy taking itself too seriously, so I confirm, it's not just your impression. I'm still not necessarily sharing it, unless it takes the form of overdone & overtalked pomposity, then yes, I hate it.)
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I concur for Russia, except that "fantastika" was a respected enough name in itself -- because it was assumed to stand for "allegory", "surrealism", etc.
On the other hand, there are works that I would map onto fantasy that definitely never got called that, like Master i Margarita (I mean, how is that not the same genre as Good Omens?) -- because there wasn't even a name for it. (I should've asked, actually, what is fantasy called in Polish? Because in Russian it's "фэнтези, so you can tell it's of very modern vintage)
And I should say, if one is a Tolkien or a Bulgakov (or a Pratchett), and actually has profound things to say, and the style of the work fits it, I have no problem with fantasy taking itself seriously -- though I still think usually long philosophical digressions are not necessary. It's more that authors who don't necessarily have anything truly profound to say still insist on saying it at length because it seems a staple of the genre in Eastern European fantasy. (Which is to say, I think you and I are fundamentally in agreement on this score :)
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Exactly.
what is fantasy called in Polish?
Mostly copied English with Polish mixed in. A typical bookstore or library has a section/bookcase/whole wall of "fantastyka" (so, speculative fiction in general), and within this there are recognized (more in discussions and reviews than physically on the shelf) those three main ones, with sub-subgenres:
1. Science-fiction or, if one wants to be academical about it, fantastyka naukowa, so literally scientific fantasy; btw, we don't shorten it, like there's science-fiction and sci-fi or sf, but only fantastyka naukowa and no fan-nauk or anything.
2. Fantasy (just that, no other general Polish term).
3. Horror or (rarely) fantastyka grozy (fantasy of dread).
Sub-subgenres are recognized, but mostly by English terms. Some cases of Polish ones in use are fantastyka socjologiczna/militarna/katastroficzna/postapokaliptyczna/humorystyczna... I guess I don't need to explain them. :D Space opera got calqued as opera kosmiczna. Urban fantasy or cyberpunk only got polonized in pronounciation (I think), while science-fiction not even that.
One thing that seems to be either entirely Polish or so unimportant in English that it got no popular English names is fantastyka bliskiego/dalekiego zasięgu (sci-fi of the short/long range). The former is typically something imaginable in a few years or tomorrow; Weir's "The Martian" very much counts in. The latter is typically something super sophisticated and set at least centuries ahead.
All this said, I'm somewhat rusty on current meta discourse, so this is maybe ~20-10 years old. :) Btw, fandom as a word has been in use here for at least ~30-40 years, but back in the day it meant speculative fiction fans in general - people that read the genre, organized first clubs and cons, made first printed zines and so on. Also, in huge part it was made of the authors themselves. Some traces of it are still there - phpbb forums that are still feebly kicking somewhat, populated by guys and gals with stacks of books and translations under their belts. The meaning "fans of franchise X" came only later. So, when I said "the old fandom" here, I meant that, not just "old fans of Witcher", because back in the day that meant the same - if you were in the fandom, you also knew Wiedźmin. You read Wiedźmin because you knew about it by being a fantasy (fantastyka) fan in general, and the other way around - "I've read Witcher and then discovered there is a whole genre like this and people gather around it" was much rarer, I think, though of course everyone had some point of entry at first.
authors who don't necessarily have anything truly profound to say still insist on saying it at length
...because they're actually convinced they do have it. :D And since having it is a must, it becomes a causal loop... Btw, I remember we talked once about how homo sovieticus and corpo-rat are actually quite similar mindsets/realities, and now it occured to me that here we have another kind-of-a-parallel: "literature has a mission"and Tumblr-ish mentality. In both, everything is (and must be) educating and representative, both have an overgrown conviction of self-importance, both think the reader's mind can be shaped like a topiary bush and it's creator's holy duty to do it, and so on.
Reply
I'm not sure about modern shelving, but to my mind, in Russian, "fantastika" would be just a shorter way of saying "nauchnaya fatastika" (the official way of saying it) and would not, I think, include fantasy. I think it is abbreviated as NF, but I might be making that up... And your subcategorization makes me realize I have no idea how to say "horror" in Russian as a genre, or whether it's even a thing...
I don't think I've heard the fantasy subgenres referred to in Russian at all...
or so unimportant in English that it got no popular English names is fantastyka bliskiego/dalekiego zasięgu (sci-fi of the short/long range
I actually have heard the English terms "far future SF" and "near future SF", but in my experience that's the kin of thing you find in blurbs and reviews, not as official subgenre categorization.
Btw, fandom as a word has been in use here for at least ~30-40 years, but back in the day it meant speculative fiction fans in general - people that read the genre, organized first clubs and cons, made first printed zines and so on.
Oh, interesting! So like in English, then, if not quite for as long as in the US.
and now it occured to me that here we have another kind-of-a-parallel: "literature has a mission"and Tumblr-ish mentality. In both, everything is (and must be) educating and representative, both have an overgrown conviction of self-importance, both think the reader's mind can be shaped like a topiary bush and it's creator's holy duty to do it, and so on.
Ooh, that's a really neat point actually! I can definitely see those parallels! (and dislike both manifestations of this thing, as you know.)
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Huh, that's actually surprising. Russia has such horror potential it could be for horror what Scandinavia is for crime. It could easily grow own subgenres. Taiga gothic... :)
"far future SF" and "near future SF"
Ah, thanks! I was sure it must be a thing, just apparently too little discussed to find names easily.
(and dislike both manifestations of this thing, as you know.)
In Polish we call it "smrodek dydaktyczny" (didactic stenchie?) and it's a name much older than Internet. ;)
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Heh, true! And I'm sure creepy stuff gets written (I don't read horror, so I wouldn't know), and there's some tradition of it, e.g. Viy, which scared the hell out of me as a child, when my mother would read the stories aloud.
I had to click around a long time in Wiki categories before finding a name for the genre: literature of horror, but it sure doesn't seem to be used much in everyday conversation.
"smrodek dydaktyczny"
Heh! I understand it with Russian, actually, because -- and I feel like we might've talked about that already? -- "smrad" is used in Russian, too, as an archaic sort of word). Although I don't know that it would be used with a diminutive, I've definitely not heard that.
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"I mean, technically it has no vampires in it, and technically it isn't exactly imperial either, more like time jumping everywhere, but trust me, it still makes better imperial vamps than 'Yekaterina's Fangs' ever got close to."
"...You know, I kind of hoped for the bar set somewhat higher. Also, I almost managed to forget it, thanks a lot..."
"Oh, come on, it's not like we can have everything on the 'White Nights' level, can we?"
"For the record, I'm really glad we finally got something, anything else that Yakut spooks again, but how do we call it now? Evenk spooks? It's just one book, it doesn't make a genre."
"Have you seen how it's selling? Just wait a year... This said, it's still as much Yakut spooks as it gets, so why bother with new names, everyone will know what you mean."
"So, what, are we going to say whenever something like this comes up 'It's Yakut spooks, but with no Yakut spooks'?"
"Well, when you put it like this..."
"It's not taiga gothic, it's tundra gothic. There's only some trees in the last chapter. At least, if it was some tiger that ate him instead of that white mishka..."
"Meh, details, you're hairsplitting."
"Me hairsplitting? If you want to see hairsplitting, try talking with that guy with a yenot icon, whatwashisname..."
"You mean, what he said about summer and winter subsubgenres? Actually, I thought he had some good points."
"Yeah, well, but recently he mentioned something about months..."
"Panelpunk without a scowling neighbour babushka just doesn't count."
"Not like I disagree, but it's just so predictable with them being always the first victim. What if, in the end, she turned out actually..."
"..."
"Wait, you were planning to write it?"
"Nah, now I'll just find something else to twist."
(I'm writing fanfiction not even for but about a fandom that probably isn't even there... Is it meta meta meta already, or just meta meta? o____o)
literature of horror, but it sure doesn't seem to be used much in everyday conversation.
And it makes an impression like it used to be viewed higher (closer to mainstream?) in the past than now. I'm not sure if it was the case here, too, but I'd say there was something like a first era around the Interwar (which is rediscovered right now and republished as vintage), then it was the "degenerate western trash", and now it's a thing again, though still mid-way from "trash" to "real literature". Interestingly, we have an author or three in it that are actually respected by the mainstream, even if not the whole genre. And once in a while it goes the other way - a mainstream author putting a toe in the genre.
I feel like we might've talked about that already?
I remembered telling ikel89 about it once, but wasn't sure if you were around that time. :D
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LOL! It's very meta-meta-meta but hugely amusing XD
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