Your thoughts about Ista are interesting. I think her bitterness was actually what I liked about her. It's part of what made her feel so fresh and real to me. Partly I think it's because - regardless of her part of blame - I felt like she had some big reasons to be angry.
I liked the two brothers and their family drama as well, I admit, even though for me they were overshadowed by other parts of the story.
trickster gods to which he seems to be somewhat related are definitely my favorite kind of deity Hear, hear!
I don't think Bujold was ever very good at killing characters. She does it so rarely and even when she does it's always in their due time, not a shocking and senseless moment.
and I did like Hazel and Foxglove I do adore these two, we get more of them in the Death books and here and there elsewhere. Agreed Game of You is one of the weakest of the series, which is odd given that the whole fantasy dream world theme had much to interest me.
I didn't know New World was out... I need to get it, I did love the first two books for all their flaws.
I keep forgetting how many fandoms we have in common (and didn't realize you read the Stackpole books -- I don't think I'd encountered anyone else who read the series)! I was... not so much disappointed as just plain boggled by New World, but there were parts of it I still liked. So.
I do adore these two, we get more of them in the Death books and here and there elsewhere.
Oh, good! I should check out the Death books now that I've finished up Sandman (except for Endless Nights), especially as I like Death a lot more than Morpheus anyway...
I think her bitterness was actually what I liked about her. It's part of what made her feel so fresh and real to me. Partly I think it's because - regardless of her part of blame - I felt like she had some big reasons to be angry.
Oh, she had every right to be angry, at the gods and at dy Lutez and at Ias and lots of other folks! And I agree that her bitterness was one of the big things that made her a very interesting character -- it's just that bitterness makes it difficult for me to appreciate a character as a "person", if that makes any sense. I have the same problem with Tyrion in ASOIAF -- I think he's a pretty brilliant character, but I can't *like* him because of the (totally justified) bitterness and self-pity.
I don't really think of The Sandman as one of my fandom, also River/Delirium is one of the hottest thing ever :)
I revewed (sorta) the Stackpole books here. You're the second person I know online who's read them too! I was surprised as well :)
I can't say I'm much fond of Morpheus either, he's pretty whiny XD But I adore Del, Death, Destruction, Desire and others of the quirky cast.
I see what you mean about finding a character interesting without liking them. Although usually they really need to be very ugly person before I stop liking them unambivalously (Tyrion's still far from that, although I'm angry at him for failing his own standard) - usually thinking how I would relate to them in real doesn't enter all that much into it. Possibly I have very low standard for liking a character :D Often I find myself liking them and hating them a little bit at the same time when they're really ugly persons as well as compelling characters. (Have you read Bakker's Prince of Nothing series? I'm thinking of characters like Cnaiur there. Horrible person yet fascinating, I can't help liking him despite everything and he makes Snape look like a kind, healthy, wholesome person).
I can't say I'm much fond of Morpheus either, he's pretty whiny XD But I adore Del, Death, Destruction, Desire and others of the quirky cast.
Hah, you've just named all of my favorite Endless (only I'd probably order them Desire / Destruction tied for first, Delirium, Death). And, yeah, Morpheus is way too gloomy and emo for me. Though I love it when the other characters mock him for it. :D
Also, I totally concur with you on Cyron/Pyrust slash. ;)
usually thinking how I would relate to them in real doesn't enter all that much into it. [...] Often I find myself liking them and hating them a little bit at the same time when they're really ugly persons as well as compelling characters
I have a tendency to like villains and some pretty ugly people, and it doesn't seem to be based on whether I would like the character in real life -- I love Tywin without any of the reservations I have with Tyrion (or even Ista), and Saruman is one of my favorite characters in LotR, and I rather liked Lord Ferris in the Swordspoint books (well, in actual Swordspoint, rape kind of killed any affection I had for him in Privilege of the Sword). But bitterness/self-pity is just a turn-off. Go figure...
We have so many books in common! It's a little bit scary. Like, browsing your reviews, I noticed you've read The Oracle Queen (Tamir trilogy) -- I haven't read that one yet, but rather liked the first two -- bummed to hear it was disappointing.
I have a tendency to like villains and some pretty ugly people, and it doesn't seem to be based on whether I would like the character in real life Does it depend on whether the character is framed as being a vilain rather than the hero? Or just a bitterness/self-pity peeve? I can see how that works, I have my own for hypocrysy and self-righteousness.
I remember adoring Saruman and Grima as a kid when I read LotR too :D
We have so many books in common! It's a little bit scary Haha, I remember that feeling when you friended me and I went over your reviews and user info!!
Flewelling disapointed me with that one, but I still hope she'll show up some good stuff eventually. There was initially such a jump in quality between her first Nightrunner books and Bone Doll Twin...
Oh, and no, I haven't read Prince of Nothing --is it something you would recommend? Prince of Nothing is a peculiar book, it's definitily of high quality, yet it's not a book to everyone taste. Male readers tend to like it more on average (female characters have it very rough in this world). It's very epic, involved, is very much based on political struggles and some amount of philosophy - not very unlike Dune, I guess, except better, and it's a very dark, ruthless story (more than ASOIAF in many ways). It's a good book if you don't mind hating most of the main cast of character. I've reviewed it there and here. I'm not sure you'd like Cnaïur, since he spends a good amount of time raping people as well as slaughtering them.
Does it depend on whether the character is framed as being a vilain rather than the hero? Or just a bitterness/self-pity peeve?
I think it's probably just a bitterness/self-pity pet peeve. Although you raise a good point, and I might be more tolerant of bitterness in a villain than in a nominal hero/good guy. Actually, I do think that's true to some degree. Interesting!
Oh, yay, somebody else who liked Saruman! People always look at me oddly when I admit to that... XP
Are the Nightrunner books not as good, then? (I know they've got many devoted fans, but I haven't read any myself.) I was pretty impressed by Bone Doll's Twin -- the political aspects of it were maybe a bit weak, and the man's magic/woman's magic thing has definitely been done before, but the central coming-of-age story I really liked, and the sort of assimilated, routinized horror (and occasional comfort) of Brother's ghost and the rest of Tobin's surroundings.
It's very epic, involved, is very much based on political struggles and some amount of philosophy - not very unlike Dune, I guess, except better
Hmm... I will admit that Dune actually irritated me to no small degree -- but mostly it was because it seemed to be taking itself so very seriously. I mean, there were definitely good parts to it, but they were sort of drowning in an ocean of self-importance. I still enjoyed it, but it was through a haze of irritation.
Having read your review, I think I'll cautiously try this series if the opportunity presents (I don't think I've seen any of these books around, but shall look them up) -- it sounds like it has some things I definitely look for in fantasy, like scope, worldbuilding,a nd interesting magic, the only thing I foresee that might really be a problem is the lack of emotional engagement. But it certainly sounds intriguing! -- thanks for pointing me towards the review.
(I think, btw, that a character committing rape, even repeatedly, does not automatically make me hate him wholeheartedly. I mean, it doesn't earn him bonus points or anything, it would definitely make it harder for me to like a character, but I think what particularly affected me in the case of Ferris was the particular way it was written (rapist blaming the victim) and also, I think, the fact that Artemisia was his betrothed -- I guess I have a bigger problem with characters committing spousal rape than other kind. (Cersei *almost* earns my sympathy for having to put up with Robert, e.g.)
Oh, and no, I haven't read Prince of Nothing --is it something you would recommend? The horrible-yet-fascinating character sounds a lot like the kind of character I'd like ;)
Your thoughts about Ista are interesting. I think her bitterness was actually what I liked about her. It's part of what made her feel so fresh and real to me. Partly I think it's because - regardless of her part of blame - I felt like she had some big reasons to be angry.
I liked the two brothers and their family drama as well, I admit, even though for me they were overshadowed by other parts of the story.
trickster gods to which he seems to be somewhat related are definitely my favorite kind of deity
Hear, hear!
I don't think Bujold was ever very good at killing characters. She does it so rarely and even when she does it's always in their due time, not a shocking and senseless moment.
and I did like Hazel and Foxglove
I do adore these two, we get more of them in the Death books and here and there elsewhere. Agreed Game of You is one of the weakest of the series, which is odd given that the whole fantasy dream world theme had much to interest me.
I didn't know New World was out... I need to get it, I did love the first two books for all their flaws.
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I do adore these two, we get more of them in the Death books and here and there elsewhere.
Oh, good! I should check out the Death books now that I've finished up Sandman (except for Endless Nights), especially as I like Death a lot more than Morpheus anyway...
I think her bitterness was actually what I liked about her. It's part of what made her feel so fresh and real to me. Partly I think it's because - regardless of her part of blame - I felt like she had some big reasons to be angry.
Oh, she had every right to be angry, at the gods and at dy Lutez and at Ias and lots of other folks! And I agree that her bitterness was one of the big things that made her a very interesting character -- it's just that bitterness makes it difficult for me to appreciate a character as a "person", if that makes any sense. I have the same problem with Tyrion in ASOIAF -- I think he's a pretty brilliant character, but I can't *like* him because of the (totally justified) bitterness and self-pity.
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I revewed (sorta) the Stackpole books here. You're the second person I know online who's read them too! I was surprised as well :)
I can't say I'm much fond of Morpheus either, he's pretty whiny XD But I adore Del, Death, Destruction, Desire and others of the quirky cast.
I see what you mean about finding a character interesting without liking them. Although usually they really need to be very ugly person before I stop liking them unambivalously (Tyrion's still far from that, although I'm angry at him for failing his own standard) - usually thinking how I would relate to them in real doesn't enter all that much into it. Possibly I have very low standard for liking a character :D Often I find myself liking them and hating them a little bit at the same time when they're really ugly persons as well as compelling characters. (Have you read Bakker's Prince of Nothing series? I'm thinking of characters like Cnaiur there. Horrible person yet fascinating, I can't help liking him despite everything and he makes Snape look like a kind, healthy, wholesome person).
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Hah, you've just named all of my favorite Endless (only I'd probably order them Desire / Destruction tied for first, Delirium, Death). And, yeah, Morpheus is way too gloomy and emo for me. Though I love it when the other characters mock him for it. :D
Also, I totally concur with you on Cyron/Pyrust slash. ;)
usually thinking how I would relate to them in real doesn't enter all that much into it. [...] Often I find myself liking them and hating them a little bit at the same time when they're really ugly persons as well as compelling characters
I have a tendency to like villains and some pretty ugly people, and it doesn't seem to be based on whether I would like the character in real life -- I love Tywin without any of the reservations I have with Tyrion (or even Ista), and Saruman is one of my favorite characters in LotR, and I rather liked Lord Ferris in the Swordspoint books (well, in actual Swordspoint, rape kind of killed any affection I had for him in Privilege of the Sword). But bitterness/self-pity is just a turn-off. Go figure...
We have so many books in common! It's a little bit scary. Like, browsing your reviews, I noticed you've read The Oracle Queen (Tamir trilogy) -- I haven't read that one yet, but rather liked the first two -- bummed to hear it was disappointing.
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Does it depend on whether the character is framed as being a vilain rather than the hero?
Or just a bitterness/self-pity peeve? I can see how that works, I have my own for hypocrysy and self-righteousness.
I remember adoring Saruman and Grima as a kid when I read LotR too :D
We have so many books in common! It's a little bit scary
Haha, I remember that feeling when you friended me and I went over your reviews and user info!!
Flewelling disapointed me with that one, but I still hope she'll show up some good stuff eventually. There was initially such a jump in quality between her first Nightrunner books and Bone Doll Twin...
Oh, and no, I haven't read Prince of Nothing --is it something you would recommend?
Prince of Nothing is a peculiar book, it's definitily of high quality, yet it's not a book to everyone taste. Male readers tend to like it more on average (female characters have it very rough in this world). It's very epic, involved, is very much based on political struggles and some amount of philosophy - not very unlike Dune, I guess, except better, and it's a very dark, ruthless story (more than ASOIAF in many ways). It's a good book if you don't mind hating most of the main cast of character. I've reviewed it there and here.
I'm not sure you'd like Cnaïur, since he spends a good amount of time raping people as well as slaughtering them.
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I think it's probably just a bitterness/self-pity pet peeve. Although you raise a good point, and I might be more tolerant of bitterness in a villain than in a nominal hero/good guy. Actually, I do think that's true to some degree. Interesting!
Oh, yay, somebody else who liked Saruman! People always look at me oddly when I admit to that... XP
Are the Nightrunner books not as good, then? (I know they've got many devoted fans, but I haven't read any myself.) I was pretty impressed by Bone Doll's Twin -- the political aspects of it were maybe a bit weak, and the man's magic/woman's magic thing has definitely been done before, but the central coming-of-age story I really liked, and the sort of assimilated, routinized horror (and occasional comfort) of Brother's ghost and the rest of Tobin's surroundings.
It's very epic, involved, is very much based on political struggles and some amount of philosophy - not very unlike Dune, I guess, except better
Hmm... I will admit that Dune actually irritated me to no small degree -- but mostly it was because it seemed to be taking itself so very seriously. I mean, there were definitely good parts to it, but they were sort of drowning in an ocean of self-importance. I still enjoyed it, but it was through a haze of irritation.
Having read your review, I think I'll cautiously try this series if the opportunity presents (I don't think I've seen any of these books around, but shall look them up) -- it sounds like it has some things I definitely look for in fantasy, like scope, worldbuilding,a nd interesting magic, the only thing I foresee that might really be a problem is the lack of emotional engagement. But it certainly sounds intriguing! -- thanks for pointing me towards the review.
(I think, btw, that a character committing rape, even repeatedly, does not automatically make me hate him wholeheartedly. I mean, it doesn't earn him bonus points or anything, it would definitely make it harder for me to like a character, but I think what particularly affected me in the case of Ferris was the particular way it was written (rapist blaming the victim) and also, I think, the fact that Artemisia was his betrothed -- I guess I have a bigger problem with characters committing spousal rape than other kind. (Cersei *almost* earns my sympathy for having to put up with Robert, e.g.)
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