Reading roundup
Still on a reading kick, as a means of not thinking about all the other crap.
24. Cinda Williams Chima, The Warrior Heir -- This was a random YA book I picked up just because I felt like some YA fantasy, and I was actually pleasantly surprised (although, admittedly, my expectations going in were pretty low). ( Not a perfect secondary world, but a fun read (SPOILERS) )
24. Cinda Williams Chima, The Warrior Heir -- This was a random YA book I picked up just because I felt like some YA fantasy, and I was actually pleasantly surprised (although, admittedly, my expectations going in were pretty low). ( Not a perfect secondary world, but a fun read (SPOILERS) )
I guess there must be... You know, I really don't know what happened before chapter 2, like, at all. It's weird that Sam shows up in chapter 2 and seems to be completely out of the loop about everything, has never seen a pray-o-mat, doesn't know about the Masters of Karma or the psych-probe...
Okay, I see that when he talks to Olvegg, Olvegg says it's been forty or forty-five years since he's seen him. Apparently, everything happened pretty damn suddenly, because Sam didn't know yet that the folks with Aspects and Attributes were now "officially" calling themselves gods. The psych-probe had only been in use for about twelve years, so I guess Sam could have had as many bodies as he needed before that.
Still, I don't know where Sam was or what he was doing all that time. Just quietly being a prince somewhere, I guess? When Olvegg asks what he's been up to, he says, "Still in the prince business?" -- so I guess he's been doing that for at least fifty years, probably longer.
do you think it's the same place where Nirriti gets his zombies, except he doesn't stick a soul in them? 'Cos Renfrew says something about them being "not born of a man or a woman"...
Oh, yeah? I don't remember that part, but it does sound like cloning or, yeah, some kind of body-growing-and-harvesting thing, which is pretty disturbing, really. I think that must be different from the bodies used for transfers, though, because, as you said, Yama gets an old body, Kali gets a child's body, Ratri gets a dumpy body, the Shan gets an epileptic body... Olvegg tells Sam he's worried about getting a body riddled with cancer. And of course Tak gets a monkey's body.
Wasn't there something about how you got a body based on your karma, or something? I can't remember where it was, but it seems like someone was telling Sam that you'd have to work off bad karma by doing time in lousy bodies or animals' bodies or something, if you didn't pass the psych-probe. Though apparently Accelerationists were refused new bodies altogether.
But, like, it says that Yama "found [Sam] a body both sturdy and in perfect health" -- so, like, where? Just lying under a bush somewhere?
Heh, yeah. I don't know, I guess if anybody had connections to buy top-quality bodies, it'd be Yama. He did have a "bootleg body shop" (several, actually, he says), with which he'd given new bodies to Kubera and, I think, Krishna. So, wherever he got Sam's body, I guess there were more to choose from... (And that "found a body both sturdy and in perfect health" line makes it sound as though the majority of available bodies may not have met those standards.)
perhaps, the middle-aged body was a body that someone like Murugan had worn and didn't want anymore, so he had returned it to the Great Wheel and it was available.
That sounds reasonable. After all, when someone gets a new body just because they're not as young as they'd like to be, surely they don't just throw the slightly older body away afterward...
Yama is actually just, even to his enemies -- and even merciful, like when he lets Taraka go the first time they face each other.
Yeah, he actually offers to spare almost everyone he fights. He offers to let Rild go more than once; and every time he meets Sam, he says he can live if he'll switch sides and become a god. Even to Agni, he says, "In the name of a friendship which once existed [...] I will give you your life if you surrender to me." For a god of death, he doesn't seem too eager about handing out his "gift."
the remaining goddesses sound awfully dull, if fairly vapid Ratri is the most pivotal one among them.
Heh, okay. Point taken.
However, due to legal problems the project was never completed.
I'm kind of glad there isn't a 1979 film. Because, well... yeah. I doubt it would have aged particularly well. But it could be pretty neat if they made one now that they've invented CGI. :D
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When he's talking to Brahma (on the telephone) in ch.2, he says "I stopped attending the old Council meetings over a century ago" and "In fact, for a century and a half I went to [festivals] only to drink". So, I guess he's been estranged from Heaven for about a century? Which would suggest at least two incarnations in-between (assuming they start with, like, a 20-year-old body)
And he claims he's been gardening... to which she replies that they could've used him doing that in Heaven. I'm not really sure what to make of that...
But the fact that everything's changed in just 40 years, it's very odd... I wonder what triggered it all, to happen so quickly?
Wasn't there something about how you got a body based on your karma, or something?
Yeah, Olvegg explains it to Sam in ch.2. It does seem like they recycle the old bodies (the ones given up by 60-year-olds as per the normal course) to be used for punishment. And, I guess you could selectively keep some with cancer for extra punishment. And screen for epilepsy? (I think it's genetic?) Not sure what they do with monkeys and dogs and such -- just kill some real ones to vacate the bodies? Or grow them in a vat, too?
Oh, wait, found it! It's at the end of chapter 2, and your comment about Yama's "bootleg body shop" triggered me to look there: "While the banks of sperm and ova, the growth tanks and the body lockers could not be transported, the transfer equipment itself was dismantled and [...] its components were loaded onto the horses." So, apparently yes to IVF and bodies grown in vats, and the body lockers are for keeping the bodies that can be reused?
But if they left all that behind, that still leaves the question of where the actual bodies for the bootleg shop operation are coming from... Raids on other facilities?
I found the Nirriti line about his zombies, too, btw: "My soulless ones -- born not of man or woman -- they are without fear" (when he is talking to Olvegg, at the beginning of ch.7). So, yeah, I'm guessing that's cloning...
For a god of death, he doesn't seem too eager about handing out his "gift."
Heh, yes, very true! The other thing I find kind of neat/ironic about Yama is that he is all about high-powered killing machines -- Agni's wand, Shiva's trident, Rudra's bow, etc. But when *he* goes into battle / kills, he does it either with drowning (Rild), death gaze (Indra and Taraka, and others, I think), his bare hands (Mara -- snapped his neck, apparently) -- and, did he actually kill anybody with that sword of his? He certainly fights with it (and a dagger)... The only person he kills with any mechanical assist, as far as I can tell, is Agni -- but it's Agni himself who pulls the trigger.
I doubt it would have aged particularly well. But it could be pretty neat if they made one now that they've invented CGI. :D
Yeah... the sort of special effects it would've called for wouldn't look so hot today if they'd been filmed in the 70's. But they could do them justice today. Right down to Tak the animatronic monkey... :)
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Okay, yeah, that sounds about right. So... I'm trying to figure out what kind of timeline we're looking at here. Yama is said to be half as old as the City, and that's in chapter 1. Given, then, that Sam appears to have left Heaven shortly after Yama's accident with the generator -- which we know happened when Yama was sixteen -- we should be able to approximate the age of the City itself, based on how many years have passed since Sam left.
So we can start with about 120, maybe? A century, as you said, plus another twenty years from before he left Heaven, to get back to Yama's birthyear (assuming Sam left when Yama was around twenty, which I suppose isn't necessarily true, but... probably close?).
Assuming that chapter 3 follows shortly, timewise, after chapter 2... it looks like twenty years before Rild shows up. "Twenty years earlier, Alundil's small festival had been an almost exclusively local affair. Now, though, with the passage of countless travelers, caused by the presence of the Enlightened One […]" Then Rild shows up. The next bit is sort of confusing, but anyway, it's defintely either one or two years before Rild dies.
After leaving Yama stuck in the sand, Sam goes to Hellwell and gets possessed. I can't tell for how long. "Throughout the kingdom, [Vigheda's] subjects were not aware that a demon now sat upon his throne." So presumably enough time had passed that his presence could have been felt throughout the kingdom, had he been a political-minded demon rather than just an epicurean one. Then he and Taraka do their mind-battle thing, Sam loses, and "How long it was before he recovered, he did not know." Days? Months? Eh. Anyway, he finds the palace overrun with demons, and then Agni shows up, etc.
So, er... I don't know. It seems like he could have been possessed for anywhere from a year to twenty years, or longer, except that Sam's still in the same body he already wore for twenty-two years in Alundil, and he still seems to be pretty fit when he gets out of Hellwell. I guess I'll just randomly say five years, even though who knows...
But then he sneaks into Murugan's body, and I can't find anything to indicate how long is it before he kills Brahma and Shiva. Gah.
As for the time between Sam's atman being projected into the sky and Yama pulling it back into a body again, it looks like fifty or sixty years. Discussing Sam's demon-gambling in chapter 1, Tak asks, "But what stakes could Sam have brought to the game?" Yama says, "All my work, all our efforts for over half a century."
So. Okay. This is going to be sort of vague. Um, 20 years before Yama blows himself up; another 100 years before Sam starts preaching Buddhism; about 20 years of Sam preaching in Alundil alone, and then 2 with Rild; say maybe 5 years of Sam being possessed by Taraka; a totally unknown period of Sam pretending to be Murugan; and say 60 years before he gets brought back to life. So, like, 207 years, give or take a few, plus however long Sam was Murugan.
So in any case, being twice Yama's age, the Celestial City must be somewhat over 400 years old.
...Well. That was pointless but somewhat satisfying...
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Aha! Well, that's just sort of weird, isn't it? I mean, is it supposed to be explicitly the soul that gets transferred, or is the idea that you can transfer all of a person's stored memories, experiences, beliefs, opinions, etc., from one body to another? I guess it's equally weird either way. And I wonder how they develop, like, muscle tone in bodies grown in vats... and do they have to go around and cut the bodies' fingernails and hair and stuff?... o_o
But if they left all that behind, that still leaves the question of where the actual bodies for the bootleg shop operation are coming from... Raids on other facilities?
XD This just gets more and more morbid, doesn't it?
I found the Nirriti line about his zombies, too, btw: "My soulless ones -- born not of man or woman -- they are without fear" (when he is talking to Olvegg, at the beginning of ch.7).
You know, I find it curious that Yama dislikes Nirriti so much. "Sooner or later, he will have to be destroyed, and it is not good to be in the debt of such a one." And, "at least the Gods of the City have some measure of grace in their unfair doings." What's Nirriti been up to, anyway?
Then again, Yama later says, "I'd rather deal with Nirriti than Heaven!" which seems completely contradictory. I guess he changed his mind?
Yama is that he is all about high-powered killing machines [...] But when *he* goes into battle / kills, he does it either with drowning (Rild), death gaze (Indra and Taraka, and others, I think), his bare hands (Mara -- snapped his neck, apparently) -- and, did he actually kill anybody with that sword of his?
I don't think so, although I'm sure he would have, if it had been convenient. But yeah -- again with the chivalry. He can build all these monstrous weapons that kill with the push of a button, but he's an old-fashioned dueler himself. (Well, except he's got that death-gaze. Bit of a cheat, really. ;)
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Whoo! I actually didn't realize there were that many time markers in the book -- it all seemed kind of nebulous, without looking for it. So it's awesome you were able to find all of this stuff! I, too, would estimate Sam's time being possessed by Taraka as about five years or less -- it was long enough for them to rub off on each other and for the gods to notice all these free demons, but I think that last part wouldn't take more than five years, I think. And I think the time spent as Murugan before he started killing gods would've been pretty short, too -- there would've been no reason for Sam to waste time by waiting, and I get the sense that Yama and Kali have only been married for a short time (although, I guess, any amount of time is "short" when faced with the prospect of one's spouse changing gender for political gain, so...)
Celestial City being 400 years old sounds about right order of magnitude, too, with the action starting at, wait, 200 + 20 + 100 -- about 320 years into its history. That's enough generations to create a self-contained world...
Ooh, I just remembered another time marker, sort of. Yama to Tak, in ch.1: "It has taken you seventeen incarnations to arrive at this truth?" I don't know if he is counting human or monkey incarnations in that. The human incarnations would be ~40 years each (60, the point at which Olvegg, I think, mentions citizens can apply for reincarnation -- though it might be different for Celestial City residents, - 20, say). But how long do monkeys live? Not that we know when Tak was born, but presumably shortly before or immediately after Sam left Heaven... since it doesn't seem like Sam is supposed to know who he is.
is it supposed to be explicitly the soul that gets transferred, or is the idea that you can transfer all of a person's stored memories, experiences, beliefs, opinions, etc., from one body to another? I guess it's equally weird either way.
I don't know... They seem to refer to it as a soul, but possibly what the *mean* by it is the latter... What I don't really understand is if the bodies they produce are soulless to begin with (which, how? how do you do that? what distinguishes them from the souled bodies that produce the colonists and their progeny?) or if they do have souls but those souls are ejected/junked when the soul of the person undergoing reincarnation takes their place inside the body? The fact that Nirriti can produce soulless bodies for his zombies seem to speak for the former, but I still don't really get how that would *work*.
I find it curious that Yama dislikes Nirriti so much.
That *is* odd. The only thing I can think of is that, unlike the gods, who are pragmatists of various degrees of corruption and selfishness, Nirriti is a fanatic, and therefore someone who can't be reasoned with or compromised... thus the only thing you can do with him ultimately is destroy him.
Yama later says, "I'd rather deal with Nirriti than Heaven!" which seems completely contradictory.
Maybe he only says that because he is freaked out by the possibility of having to deal with Kali again? He seems pretty agitated during that whole conversation, "slamming his fist upon the table" and exclamation marks all over the place, and he is being unusually irrational:
"Is it that you want someone to kill Brahma for you?" asked Sam.
Yama sat silently, drew upon the cigarette, exhaled. Then, "Perhaps," he said. "Perhaps that is it. I do not know. I don't like to think about it. It is probably true, though."
"Would you like my guarantee that Braqhma will die?"
"No! If you try it, I'll kill you!"
and then: "But I will not speak with Brahma." Petulant, even. (He actually reminds me a bit of Julian in this scene, specifically, Julian in the "everybody taking an oath not to harm Brand" bit.
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Heh, yes. Although he only seems to use his deathgaze against other "suprenatural" opponents -- gods or demons. I've been skimming over his fight with Rild again and again, and I can't find mention of him actually trying to use deathgaze (no black lightnings or anything), although Rild says, "Now can I meet your death-gaze, Yama [...] an not be stopped by it. You have taught me too well!" Possibly it's just Yama's ordinary gaze without raising his Aspect (like he presents to Sam in ch.7), but it's still kind of odd.
And I'd meant to mention that he actually *witholds* his "gift" from Nirriti: "'You are mad,' said Yama, 'and I will not take your life for that reason. Give it away yourself, when you are ready, which should be soon.'"
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Yeah, I was expecting a lot more guesswork. I was kind of confused by the thing with Rild, though. I counted his stay as being two years long, but in the actual text, we get this:
"Rild came in the spring [...]"
"It was many months before the miracle [of Rild's becoming a prophet] occurred."
"Summer passed. There was no doubt that there were two who had received enlightenment."
Now, the only way that Rild came in spring, and then many months passed, and then it was summer, is if we're talking about the summer of the following year, yes? But then we get:
"When the winds of spring blew again across the land, the year having gone full cycle since the arrival of the second Buddha, [Yama showed up]."
So... How does that work? Unless Zelazny means a year had passed since Rild became Sugata, which I guess is possible...
And I think the time spent as Murugan before he started killing gods would've been pretty short, too -- there would've been no reason for Sam to waste time by waiting
Yeah, that's what I figured. And if he'd waited a few years, I think it's less likely that Kubera would have jumped to the, "Hey, I'll bet Murugan is really Sam!" conclusion.
"It has taken you seventeen incarnations to arrive at this truth?" I don't know if he is counting human or monkey incarnations in that.
I read it as "total incarnations," but yeah, I guess he might just be referring to monkey incarnations. Actually, while reading the book, I just assumed that Tak had only been incarnated as a monkey once. But given that they've been trying to bring Sam back for more than 50 years... er... either Tak has had a few different monkey bodies, or he is one heck of an old monkey.
What I don't really understand is if the bodies they produce are soulless to begin with [...] or if they do have souls but those souls are ejected/junked when the soul of the person undergoing reincarnation takes their place inside the body?
Yeah, exactly. If the characters didn't believe in "souls," then I'd figure it was just a matter of, hey, some people get to live lives and have experiences, which get transferred into other bodies which, yes, could have had their own lives and experiences, but they didn't, because that's the way it works. But if they do believe in "souls," then how do you put sperm and eggs together in such a way as to make a soulless body? Is there something magical about being grown in a real womb, or what?
Petulant, even. (He actually reminds me a bit of Julian in this scene, specifically, Julian in the "everybody taking an oath not to harm Brand" bit.
Hee, yes! Julian was actually the first of the brothers who came to mind when I tried to think which Amberite Yama resembled, but I figured it was just because I like them both. Objectively, they don't seem like they have much in common... but still there's something about them that makes me want to compare them to each other. (Well, and having already equated Kali to Fiona...)
And I'd meant to mention that he actually *witholds* his "gift" from Nirriti: "'You are mad,' said Yama, 'and I will not take your life for that reason. Give it away yourself, when you are ready, which should be soon.'"
Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about that -- interesting. Chivalry again? I sort of get the impression that Nirriti just kind of weirds Yama out. Which, what with all the zombies, I'm not really surprised...
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I'm thinking it's that, and the intervening spring between his arrival and the summer that's mentioned earlier just gets... elided or something.
I just assumed that Tak had only been incarnated as a monkey once. But given that they've been trying to bring Sam back for more than 50 years... er... either Tak has had a few different monkey bodies, or he is one heck of an old monkey.
It's mentioned at the end of ch.5 that "Tak of the Archives and the Bright Spear was judged by the Lords of Karma and was transmigratd into th body of an ape; and there was a warning set within his mind that wherever he presented himself for renewal he was to be given again the body of an ape, to wander the world in this form until such a time as Heaven saw fit to extend its mercy and lift this doom from him." Although I don't think it says anywhere whether he actually applied for renewal after that -- I think it's likely, because 17 incarnations would be kind of a lot if they're all humna, unless, like Murugan, he doesn't keep the bodies for long. (That is, if Tak is younger than Yama, which seems likely -- though he can't be a whole *lot* younger than him, given his parentage and that we think Sam took off when Yama was about 20 -- then 160/40 = 4 human incranations prior to assuming a monkey's body if he goes for the full span, or, say 8 if he reincarnates as soon as he hits his forties... Says Tak's an ape, actually, and a jungle one at that, so I think we can rule out gorillas. And, since I'm still stuck on the librarian thing, I was going to assume an orang, but Wikipedia betrayed me by not listing a lifespan, so let's go with chimp -- lifespan is 40 years in the wild, 60 in captivity, 75 the greatest lifespan recorded. (And if he is a lesser ape, like a gibbon, the lifespan of those is 25 years) So, while I guess it's possible that Tak is still in the original monkey body he got at the end of chapter 5, I think it's unlikely.
Why would Yama know how many incarnation Tak's gone through, anyhow? Maybe he just threw out the number randomly, in-between cursing, and we are puzzling ourselves for naught...
BTW, is there anything that implies/hints who Tak's mother is supposed to be, btw? Somebody from the Celestial City, presumably, since that's where he ended up, but... the mysterious Parvati? Presumably not Kali... A random unnamed goddess/demigoddess?
But if they do believe in "souls," then how do you put sperm and eggs together in such a way as to make a soulless body?
Yeah, that's the stumbling block for me... And I don't think there's anything in the book that explains it or even hints at it...
Objectively, they don't seem like they have much in common... but still there's something about them that makes me want to compare them to each other.
For me, too, although objectively I couldn't say why. Trying to explain it to myself, I keep grasping at things like Morgenstern reminding me of Yama's war gadgets, or maybe the first adversarial then allied relationship with the hero (although Sam and Yama seem to get a lot more buddy-buddy than Corwin and Julian every do...), or maybe the fact that, unlike everyone else, Sam and Corwin, respectively, can get under Yama and Julian's skin. Well, and the Kali/Fiona thing, as you mentioned.
I sort of get the impression that Nirriti just kind of weirds Yama out. Which, what with all the zombies, I'm not really surprised...
Very possibly... I'm thinking the zombies aren't really alive (I mean, duh... but this is such an odd book where life and death seem to follow different than normal rules, so, I dunno...), so possibly they creep Yama out of that reason. Since, being not alive they can't be subject to Death. He goes on and on about them in chapter 6: "the mindless minions of Nirriti coming upon them as a single man, all in step and without fear their drums keeping time, perfet and agonizing, and nothing behind their eyes, nothing at all" -- he does sound kind of creeped out.
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Ah, thanks, I was looking for that. I kept looking for it in chapter 6 for some reason. Anyway, yeah, 17 is rather too many human incarnations -- so, several ape bodies, then. And in chapter 7, Tak tells Kubera that he's been staying an ape on purpose, because he makes a good spy that way, even though Yama could have given him a human body.
Of course, unless they stopped using the psych-probe after Yama left, I'd assume that Tak wouldn't be able to get any kind of body from the Masters of Karma... so, I guess Yama has been procuring primate bodies especially for him over the years?...
Why would Yama know how many incarnation Tak's gone through, anyhow? Maybe he just threw out the number randomly, in-between cursing, and we are puzzling ourselves for naught...
Heh, good point. XD
is there anything that implies/hints who Tak's mother is supposed to be, btw?
I don't think so. He says, "I am the son of a body he once inhabited, born of another who also passed through many," so whoever she was, she'd at least been around for a while. It does say that Parvati had fled to... er, "that place" among the witches "at the time the phantom cats looked on Heaven." I assumed that the cats had been prevented from seeing the City almost from the time it was founded (or whenever the jungle was, like, installed or whatever), so I don't think Parvati was actually in Heaven at the time Tak was born. But that doesn't necessarily preclude her from being the mother, either.
or maybe the fact that, unlike everyone else, Sam and Corwin, respectively, can get under Yama and Julian's skin.
Yeah, that's true. Though I think Yama actually handles it better than Julian, despite being, as Ganesha points out, "emotionally unstable." Julian is supposed to be a master of self-control, but it seems like every time we see him, he ends up getting flustered about something Corwin is doing. He seems to have to work a lot harder at being impassive than Yama does, maybe because being passive isn't a part of Yama's "image," it's just something he aims for when possible -- and maybe because Corwin is a lot more infuriating than Sam is. ;) And yet, for all Julian's pettiness and swaggering and lashing out, I never got the impression that he was actually unstable, whereas I agree that Yama probably is.
I'm thinking the zombies aren't really alive [...] so possibly they creep Yama out of that reason. Since, being not alive they can't be subject to Death. He goes on and on about them in chapter 6
Heh, he does, doesn't he? I'd forgotten that wasn't just part of the narration. Yeah, frankly, I think it's the not-subject-to-death part that would creep anybody out, but maybe Yama most of all, since that's his special province.
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Must be... I find this totally hilarious! I mean, commando raids on growth vat/body locker facilities are weird enough, but commando raids in pursuit of monkey bodies? Yeah... XD
so I don't think Parvati was actually in Heaven at the time Tak was born.
That makes sense... Just a great big unknown then, as far as Tak's full parentage is concerned.
Julian is supposed to be a master of self-control, but it seems like every time we see him, he ends up getting flustered about something Corwin is doing. [...] -- and maybe because Corwin is a lot more infuriating than Sam is. ;) And yet, for all Julian's pettiness and swaggering and lashing out, I never got the impression that he was actually unstable, whereas I agree that Yama probably is.
Heh, I would agree that a large part of it is Corwin being infuriating -- pretty much all the time, and especially towards Julian, I think -- whereas Sam is usually not at all and towards Yama only briefly and targetedly when he needs to discomfit him. I would agree that Julian is pretty stable -- we see him under as much stress as I suppose is possible after Caine's death(s), and he is holding it together pretty well, considering, and even though Fiona can clearly affect/manipulate him to some degree, it seems to be fairly minor, as he does not lose his head or anything like that. In fairness, Yama only seems to be "emotionally unstable" when it comes to Kali -- "the only thing you ever cared for" -- and never anything else.
Which is not that strange, actually -- Julian has a large and complicated family that he feels various degrees of affection and exasperation for -- even if Caine and Fiona seem to be the only ones he has strong positive feelings for -- but Yama (and, actually, nobody in Lord of Light) has no built-in network of affection / relationship. So, other than Kali, there are maybe two people for whom he *could* feel some kind of affection -- Kubera and Sam, but I'm not seeing it. He certainly seems to *respect* them both, which is more than can be said for many others, but I'm not seeing him regard Sam as anything more than a rather unique tool. (Actually, the really odd feeling I get is that Yama-as-Death acts fonder with Sam than Yama-as-Yama -- there is this weird familiarity an camaraderie vibe I get from the battle in chapter 6 that I don't see between Sam and Yama elsewhere. And this is after Kubera says that "Death [...] is no one's friend").
Speaking of Kubera... besides the scene with Murga at the end, were there more scenes between him and Yama than the ones in chapter 6, when they're discussing who killed Brahma? Granted, Yama is not at his best at that moment, having been just unceremeniously dumped by Kali, but, though he calls Kubera "my friend," I'm not seeing a whole lot of warmth there, or when he . Ditto for the Murga scene -- Yama is pretty distraught at this point too, of course, but I'm not feeling much warmth towards Kubera: he lets Kubera in when Kubera reminds him that he is also an artificer, therefore potentially useful, rather than out of any emotional connection. Although I kind of wonder at this exchange:
"Who is it?"
"Kubera."
"Go away, Kubera."
I wonder if there's anyone he wouldn't've told to go away, if Kubera wasn't it... If you're going to say "Go away" regardless, why even ask who's there? Unless he would've been happy to see an enemy, or something, so he could take comfort in his aspect or whatever....
Anyway, this is all to say that not only does Yama admit that Kali is the only "thing" he ever cared about, that actually seems to be the case. Which, if your whole world is fixated on one person, it makes a lot of sense that you would be slightly insane about her.
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True -- but of course, Kali being so high-powered in the pantheon, and Yama having such a close affiliation with her (even before the marriage), and she being such a bitch... the fact that Yama is "only" unstable in reference to her still implies a fair amount of unstable.
Julian has a large and complicated family that he feels various degrees of affection and exasperation for [...] but Yama (and, actually, nobody in Lord of Light) has no built-in network of affection / relationship.
Yeah, it's interesting how even though both stories are steeped in rivalry and vendettas and shady, self-serving alliances, there's still something about the Amberites all being family that brings a certain unity to them. I mean, I guess it's partly that, even if they want to kill each other, they do all have a common love for Amber, and manage to pull together against... well, Brand, really; but, more epically, Chaos -- in any case, a common enemy.
But I think it's not just the common enemy thing. Even if Sam and Yama and all the other gods had been forced to join ranks against some greater evil, there would never have been the same familiarity, the same kind of strained but unmistakable fraternity, that the Amberites share. The Lord of Light folks all feel very disconnected from each other. Even the First don't seem to have any particular bond. According to Sam, so much time has passed that they're all different people now from who they were in the beginning -- funny, since the Amberites quite certainly have known each other much, much longer than Sam's known Kali, yet they never seem to grow apart from each other like that.
Actually, the really odd feeling I get is that Yama-as-Death acts fonder with Sam than Yama-as-Yama -- there is this weird familiarity an camaraderie vibe I get from the battle in chapter 6 that I don't see between Sam and Yama elsewhere.
Dude, I noticed that too! Weird. I mean, it could be the same thing Sam was telling Kali: she doesn't care about him, she just misses the old wars. Yama obviously also loves destruction and battle, and maybe he'll just happily stand with whoever is willing to go and play god with him and throw around Aspect and Attribute and smash things up. It's the only explanation I can think of for his seeming to be so one with Sam during the battle, and so distanced and coolly evaluative of him for the entire rest of the book.
Speaking of Kubera... besides the scene with Murga at the end, were there more scenes between him and Yama than the ones in chapter 6, when they're discussing who killed Brahma?
No, I don't think so. And, yeah, I think you're right, the friendship does seem fairly one-sided, with Kubera doing all the actual friendliness, and Yama just sort of accepting it. Still, obviously he trusts Kubera, and is willing to dupe the other gods to keep him out of trouble (promising to make sure the psych-probe won't see anything incriminating). And that bit --
"But I will find who did it, whatever his station, and kill him."
"Why?"
"I have need of something to do, someone to..."
"Kill?"
"Yes."
-- has rather the ring of a confession about it. Not a confession that he plans to kill someone, which I doubt is anything very surprising, him being Death and all; but a confession that when/if he does kill someone, it won't be in the name of justice or vengeance or really anything to do with the perpetrator, but, like, because he's upset and wants to take comfort in his Aspect, as Kubera puts it. Which is definitely not the most rational or mature way of dealing with things, and probably not something Yama would go around advertising to anyone who wasn't, in some sense, his friend.
I wonder if there's anyone he wouldn't've told to go away, if Kubera wasn't it...
Yeah, I don't know why he bothered to ask. Just curious who was stalking him to his hotel room, maybe... I wonder how Tak knew where he was, anyway?
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That is certainly true. It's a little like being "only" allergic to sunlight. (Is it sad that I'm driven to plumb House episodes for similes? Oh well...)
Still, at least it's just the one Achilles heel, sort of. (And, duh, it just occurred to me where -- I believe -- Zelazny must've gotten the death-bath idea...)
Yeah, it's interesting how even though both stories are steeped in rivalry and vendettas and shady, self-serving alliances, there's still something about the Amberites all being family that brings a certain unity to them.
YES! It may not even be unity of purpose, but, as you said, the unity of loving Amber together (I don't get the sense, for instance, that anybody *loves* Celestial City all that much -- even Vishnu, who made he damn thing, seems proprietary more than truly fond of it, and even though Yama seems impressed by the finely-tuned-machinery way in which it works (he goes on about it at some length, too, when they're bringing Sam over there, captive), he doesn't seem to care a whole lot about it), or even just the unity of being family -- having someone like Oberon for a father -- that seems to be something they actively *share*, if you know what I mean, and being Princes of Amber (what it means to them), which kind of trumps (heh ;) ) the individual desires to be its king. But the gods don't seem to have *anything* in common.
Ultimately, I think that's why that, complex and wonderful as Yama is, I would love Amber considerably more than Lord of Light even if the page counts matched -- because apparently my narrative "kink" is Family, in all its odd and tisted guises, and Amber is all *about* that. While Lord of Light is sort of the reverse -- a world without family, even where biological or marital familial relationships exist. Tak and Sam, of course -- Tak's got a bit of hero worship going, but it doesn't actually *go* anywhere -- it's almost like he wouldn't know what to do with a father, and of course Sam doesn't seem to give a damn at all. The Yama/Kali marriage, which appears to be first of a kind ("there are no marriages in Heaven") and doesn't last very long -- and when Yama "adopts" Murga!Kali, he sure doesn't stick around for very long (about six months).
Which is quite impressive, actually. I'm sure it takes some doing to write a pantheon story that *isn't* about family. I mean, I loved the Greek myths and the Norse myths as a kid, and, in retrospect, it was that whole messed-up family thing that appealed to me there, too -- Hera and Zeus as siblings and philandering husband and vengeful wife, Athena - Ares - Apollo - et al as bickering half-siblings, Hermes as the very-Random-like younger-sibling/brat -- but all in it together when it comes to battling the Titans; ditto for the Norse gods. But there is nothing shared, nothing deeper behind the maneuvering and betrayals and momentary alliances of the gods.
>>Actually, the really odd feeling I get is that Yama-as-Death acts fonder with Sam than Yama-as-Yama -- there is this weird familiarity an camaraderie vibe I get from the battle in chapter 6 that I don't see between Sam and Yama elsewhere.
Dude, I noticed that too!
I'm glad it's not just me! That was such an odd thing to happen, I was half-convinced I was just imagining it. You're probably right, though -- Sam is, essentially, Kalkin again in that battle, the same "person" who Kali was so attracted to, and Yama in Aspect sort of completes that odd little love triangle. Weird, weird, weird.
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has rather the ring of a confession about it.
It does... It reminds me, too, of the bit between Yama and Sam quoted up above, where Sam basically says Yama's all messed up about Kali because she's the only thing he ever cared for, and Yama just sort of acquiesces. He doesn't seem to want to confess, himself, but he is oddly willing to accept other people (as long as they're sorta-close, like Kubera or Sam) making confessions for him. He seems to be OK, in other words, with (those) people knowing just how unstable he is when it comes to Kali. I wonder if it's that Sam needling him about it over the years has inured him to it?
But, yeah, I don't think he'd be as open about it with someone who he wasn't in some degree close to -- so, in that sense, I think Kubera *and* Sam are, really, friends of his, it's just that "friend" doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to him beyond that.
I wonder how Tak knew where he was, anyway?
Huh. I had forgotten about that, but, yeah, it's Tak who tells Kubera where to find Yama. And I have no idea why... I doubt very much that Yama would confide in Tak, and I doubt that Tak would just figure it out if Kubera couldn't, and... yeah. No idea.
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Ultimately, I think that's why that, complex and wonderful as Yama is, I would love Amber considerably more than Lord of Light even if the page counts matched -- because apparently my narrative "kink" is Family, in all its odd and tisted guises, and Amber is all *about* that.
I've never thought about the Amber books being "about family" -- what with the family in question being a mass of internal rivalries and mutual death-wishes -- but you're right, it really is about family, in a twisted sort of way. I don't know if that's a narrative kink of mine also, or if it just happened to work for me in that series, but the relationships between characters, strained yet somehow unbreakable, was certainly one of the most interesting aspects of the series. Even Merlin's books were made more readable by the fact that he, too, and Luke and Martin and so on, were family, whether they were likable or not.
I'm not sure what to think about Amber and Lord of Light in comparison to each other. Amber is, I'll say, definitely more enjoyable to read, with more fascinating characters, more diverse and fantastical settings, and more epic events. (Well, how much more epic can an event be, when it spans the breadth of all possible universes and threatens the destruction of all of them, right?) However, stylistically I still think Lord of Light is a lot cleaner, without so many internal inconsistencies and meandering tangents. There's something nicely contained and complete about Lord of Light, whereas Amber ends to sprawl all over the place, and sometimes Zelazny seems to have no idea where he's going. And thematically, I think Lord of Light feels much more unified, all the elements tying together around the same ideas.
I guess I'm not really sure, though, whether maybe even that makes Amber better, on account of being more open-ended and less preachy, a book of events rather than a book of lessons. In Lord of Light, there are these seven steps, all balanced and equal, creating a whole that's precise and simple and almost circular, like a fable or a myth. Amber, though, is much more organic, branching all over, with scattered chapters that all have some purpose, certainly, but not always one that's immediately clear. It feels more real, being so woolly and uncontained, undisciplined. And it feels more real because it isn't overtly thematic, doesn't "mean" any one thing. It's just a story.
So, yeah, I know I *like* Amber better, but I don't know that Amber actually *is* better, in terms of plot and themes and narrative flow and suchlike. I worry that my judgment may be skewed by my fairly shallow love of guys in medieval cloaks and tunics forming dubious alliances and then hacking each other up with swords. ;)
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Exactly! To paraphrase Tolstoy, all happy families are boring, so it's only the unhappy ones that are worth writing about. And the Amberites are, perhaps, a bit more twisted and murderous and incestuous than most, but, still all about family. (Actually, there's this book -- it's called The Well-Favored Man -- that, in retrospect, must have been quite consciously based on Amber, except all the siblings love each other and are nice to each other and it's one big friendly family whose happiness is marred only by the disappearance/death of the mother. And I couldn't finish it, it was so boring. So, yeah, murderous unhappy families all the way! In fiction.)
I know what you're saying and I think you're right -- Lord of Light shows more evidence of craft, I think, is more self-consistent and whole and complete -- which is weird, actually, since apparently it's a pretty early work -- but Amber is sprawling and messy (and, frankly, might've been better off without the whole Merlin half, but let's not go there) -- and yet more vibrant and *alive* for it. It's also a different *kind* of novel, I think. It's an epic, and an epic has got to sprawl and sprout random tangents that don't actually go anywhere and have heft. While Lord of Light is this cunningly made, compact thing, elegant and revolving, with these disparate spokes coming back to the center where Sam is, and it's equally fitting. I prefer sprawling epics over cunningly wrought tight packages, which is probably another thing in Amber's favor, in addition to being about Family.
I guess one could argue that "epics" are easier to write, in a way, (and people have been doing it for longer, besides) because they're allowed to be untidy (I think "wooly" is a great word for it!) and you can throw a whole bunch of stuff into it and some of it will work and the stuff that doesn't will just fade into the background. But I still like them better -- they do feel more "real" and less elegant constructions of artifice. Anyway.
I worry that my judgment may be skewed by my fairly shallow love of guys in medieval cloaks and tunics forming dubious alliances and then hacking each other up with swords. ;)
Which is an extremely good reason to like something *she said unbiasedly* ;)
Totally randomly, but that sentence made me wonder -- and you might have mentioned this before and I just forgot -- but, speaking of men with cloaks and swords, have you read The Three Musketeers? (I ask because I'm quite convinced that my own love of men with cloaks and swords hails from thence, although much more the Soviet-era movie than the actual book.)
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