My position on so-called "fan fiction" is pretty well known. I'm against it, for a variety of reasons that I've stated previously more than once. I won't repeat 'em here
( Read more... )
Personally, I love the stance Charlie Stross has on fan fiction:
"I do not mind you writing fanfic using my characters and sharing it with your friends unless you do so in a manner that f**s with my ability to earn a living. . . . I am not a precious sparkly unicorn who is obsessed with the purity of his characters - rather, I am a glittery and avaricious dragon who is jealous of his steaming pile of gold. If you do not steal the dragon's gold, the dragon will leave you alone. Offer to bring the dragon more gold and the dragon will be your friend."
As well, JK Rowling, of course, who said that as long young people are encouraged to write, she's happy, though, of course, as long as they don't try to make money off it.
It's a personal opinion. It's going to be a little while yet until I publish my book, and I would only be lucky if it is good and popular enough for people to want to write fic for it. If it is, however, I stand strongly by my opinion that what I wrote, my books, are there, it's my universe, my characters, they go where I sent them and do what I told them. But what people want to imagine they do in their own times is really their business as long as they don't try to make money out of it or claim ownership of the characters/universe. I am, however, a rather laid back person who cares little for things like this. As well, I am a person who is a good writer thanks to fan fiction and the feedback and practice it provided. (I was an immigrant when I started off, and somehow stumbled into fan fiction for the Harry Potter books).
However, I fully support both your opinion and your right to have them and act upon them. Your books, characters, and works will always be yours, and you have a right to have people respect your wishes as to their use no matter what their personal opinions about that may be. I've noticed a lot of people don't get that. It's all good and well to argue and tell you what we think, and try to change your mind, but in the end, whatever you feel the end of that conversation.
(I also wanted to mention, that I completely agree with your "children" analogy, despite my views on fan fiction. I feel the same way. I can hardly have people edit my work. So I would never ever look up any fan fiction based on my work, or I may just join you in your opinion, no matter how strongly I oppose it at the moment. You just never know exactly until it happens to you, I suppose.)
I'm not so sure about the illegality of fanfics. Fanfics use the "world" an author created, which is a concept, an idea. However, copyright law is not supposed to apply to ideas, only to the words themselves. Unusual names however, you might be able to defend infringement on the copyright and as trademarks.
As for Marion Zimmer Bradley, her failure might have been to be actively reading the facfics. In copyright law, you have to prove that the "copy" is indeed a copy and not only someone arriving at the same result in a completely separate process. ie: if you write something and it never leaves your computer, you can't sue someone who used the exact same words as they would not have been able to copy your work in the first place.
They use the worlds and of characters, generally. Either way, this makes them a derivative of the original product. At Chilling Effects, their section on fan fiction has this:
" The owner also can stop someone from (5) creating "derivative works". A derivative work is a new work based on someone else's intellectual property. A sequel to a movie, Rocky IX for example, is a derivative work."
There's an argument that fan fiction is "transformative" and therefore can fall under a fair use exemption, but I myself am fairly dubious about this.
BTW, the selection of Rocky in the above quote is not coincidence. Sylvester Stallone successfully sued someone who wrote a proposed Rocky sequel without permission. The court found sufficiently developed characters in and of themselves are afforded copyright protection.
I tend to agree with Diana on most of her points, and while I've read one or two pieces of fanfic, it's never really held my attention. I'd rather have the originating author weave the stories for his/her characters.
At the end of the day it all comes down to respect. Which seems to get lost in the great big internet void. Some authors like fanfic - great. Enjoy turning their stuff into fanfic. Other authors don't like fanfic - respect it and don't do it.
It's really quite simple and it's just too bad that not everyone believes/understands that respect is important. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with your grandma or your favorite author/singer/etc or the waitress at your neighborhood diner, simple respect for others goes a long way.
"As well, JK Rowling, of course, who said that as long young people are encouraged to write, she's happy, though, of course, as long as they don't try to make money off it."
And look at where that lead her to... a court battle against the the owner of a site that decided to publish a Harry Potter encyclopaedia.
I was deeply involved in the HP fandom for several years and out of the dozens of friends and hundreds of friends of friends discussing the case across my f-list, I don't know a single fic writer who didn't side with Rowling during that trial. I'm sure some existed, but in general the fanfic community reacts very harshly against people who try to publish fanfiction or any other derivative works without the permission of the writer.
It's partly to protect our hobby, because every time something like that happens, a few more authors come out with anti-fanfic policies, but it's also true that the vast majority of ficcers value the gift economy fandom is based on and react badly to ANY attempt to profit off fanfiction. (Check out the Fanlib incident for a whole lot of very angry, articulate explanations about why.)
Unfortunately, that's not really an accurate comparison, because that had little to do with fan fiction.
When it comes to fantasy series, especially ones that create a completely different world, with its own terminology, geography, etc., most of them will have encyclopedias or references, on-line or in print. I know there are a billion Middle Earth and Narnia ones out there, not written by either Tolkien or Lewis. Of course, they're dead. It's a bit of a gray territory, especially with on-line ones.
It's not actually a copyright violation to make those online, for instance, in the same way it wouldn't be for me to publish an essay about Ice and Fire, because it is simply explaining and listing the concepts of the books. I know, for instance, that Ice and Fire series has plenty (I had to read the first book in first year university, and had to refer to on-line guides for certain concepts and characters because I didn't have time to read it as thoroughly as I did the second time. :)) Nor is it or can it be classified as "fan fiction" in any shape or form.
What happened with JKR and that guy was a very... unwise person fighting a very... doomed battle from the very beginning, and I don't think it could be blamed on her allowing fan fiction. One of her main arguments was that she had herself planned on writing something akin to a Harry Potter reference/encyclopedia, and since she had decided that, there would be no reason to allow some random guy to make money off of it. Yet there are a few other books about her universe that she DID allow people to publish (like the Science of Harry Potter, which takes spells and mythology she used and relates it to the real roots in science or history), and none of them were fan fiction.
You're right in theory. JKR had had troubles in this general category when she was going to be sued by some person who claimed she stole names from her, I believe, fan fiction. It is unfortunate, and unpleasant, but first of all, I've never seen any fan WIN one of those battles, because frankly, they usually stem out of people's stupidity and ignorance of copyright and licensing laws.
Yet after both of those messes, she had not withdrawn her agreement for people to write fan fiction, though she was specifically asked somewhere right after whether that had spoiled her once eager support of it. It has not. There are hundreds of people writing and getting better and loving it and not being crazy out there, and for her, at least, that over weighed the couple of crazies she has had to deal with (but when you're a real popular artist of any kind, I can guarantee a couple of those can be expected somewhere along the road either way). There are.. unwise people everywhere, I've seen many authors get into ridiculous legal battles with fans when fan fiction wasn't involved at all.
But anyway. The instance you're talking about had little to do with fan fiction. The second instance I mentioned, she sued the person first for I don't remember what specifically, but it had something to do with making stupid allegations in the first place.
Agreed, and a query: what about licensed role playing games?shiranaihoshiMay 8 2010, 09:58:42 UTC
It was very kind of you, midnight_birth, to type out something very similar to my own thoughts on the matter and save my fingers a little strain. I am firmly in the camp of "respect the writer's wishes, regardless of your own feelings."
It is strange; I haven't thought about fan fiction in a while. I call it strange because like many, fan fiction is where I got my start at the keyboard. It was always a private affair, shared with close friends in print copies or email. I never posted it to the internet, nor, have I ever considered doing so. So it effectively avoided many of the issues mentioned here (not on purpose, just out of shyness).
Some time ago I evolved to the desire to publish my own work with my own worlds and my own characters. Ironic when you consider that my first paid writing work has been in a world of extremely vigorously guarded intellectual property (at the owner's invite and with them reviewing the output, I assure you).
Which brings me to my query- it seems that the domain of role playing games muddies the waters. Here, the author has essentially allowed people to pay a licensing fee to play in their world, and in many cases with their characters. Perhaps the license granters imagine that role playing is still only a group of people around a table in someone's living room, but this is not true. A great many groups play in text-based medium over the internet. They play in chat rooms and forums and via email. This leaves a text trail more or less identical to fan fiction. If this is done in a forum, it is there for the internet to see. Some groups might post logs to a website.
Now, I know that there is a Song of Fire and Ice role playing game. I'd be very curious how Mr. Martin thinks this weaves in to the topics at hand.
"I do not mind you writing fanfic using my characters and sharing it with your friends unless you do so in a manner that f**s with my ability to earn a living. . . . I am not a precious sparkly unicorn who is obsessed with the purity of his characters - rather, I am a glittery and avaricious dragon who is jealous of his steaming pile of gold. If you do not steal the dragon's gold, the dragon will leave you alone. Offer to bring the dragon more gold and the dragon will be your friend."
As well, JK Rowling, of course, who said that as long young people are encouraged to write, she's happy, though, of course, as long as they don't try to make money off it.
It's a personal opinion. It's going to be a little while yet until I publish my book, and I would only be lucky if it is good and popular enough for people to want to write fic for it. If it is, however, I stand strongly by my opinion that what I wrote, my books, are there, it's my universe, my characters, they go where I sent them and do what I told them. But what people want to imagine they do in their own times is really their business as long as they don't try to make money out of it or claim ownership of the characters/universe. I am, however, a rather laid back person who cares little for things like this. As well, I am a person who is a good writer thanks to fan fiction and the feedback and practice it provided. (I was an immigrant when I started off, and somehow stumbled into fan fiction for the Harry Potter books).
However, I fully support both your opinion and your right to have them and act upon them. Your books, characters, and works will always be yours, and you have a right to have people respect your wishes as to their use no matter what their personal opinions about that may be. I've noticed a lot of people don't get that. It's all good and well to argue and tell you what we think, and try to change your mind, but in the end, whatever you feel the end of that conversation.
(I also wanted to mention, that I completely agree with your "children" analogy, despite my views on fan fiction. I feel the same way. I can hardly have people edit my work. So I would never ever look up any fan fiction based on my work, or I may just join you in your opinion, no matter how strongly I oppose it at the moment. You just never know exactly until it happens to you, I suppose.)
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As for Marion Zimmer Bradley, her failure might have been to be actively reading the facfics. In copyright law, you have to prove that the "copy" is indeed a copy and not only someone arriving at the same result in a completely separate process. ie: if you write something and it never leaves your computer, you can't sue someone who used the exact same words as they would not have been able to copy your work in the first place.
Reply
" The owner also can stop someone from (5) creating "derivative works". A derivative work is a new work based on someone else's intellectual property. A sequel to a movie, Rocky IX for example, is a derivative work."
There's an argument that fan fiction is "transformative" and therefore can fall under a fair use exemption, but I myself am fairly dubious about this.
BTW, the selection of Rocky in the above quote is not coincidence. Sylvester Stallone successfully sued someone who wrote a proposed Rocky sequel without permission. The court found sufficiently developed characters in and of themselves are afforded copyright protection.
Reply
At the end of the day it all comes down to respect. Which seems to get lost in the great big internet void.
Some authors like fanfic - great. Enjoy turning their stuff into fanfic.
Other authors don't like fanfic - respect it and don't do it.
It's really quite simple and it's just too bad that not everyone believes/understands that respect is important. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with your grandma or your favorite author/singer/etc or the waitress at your neighborhood diner, simple respect for others goes a long way.
Reply
And look at where that lead her to... a court battle against the the owner of a site that decided to publish a Harry Potter encyclopaedia.
Reply
It's partly to protect our hobby, because every time something like that happens, a few more authors come out with anti-fanfic policies, but it's also true that the vast majority of ficcers value the gift economy fandom is based on and react badly to ANY attempt to profit off fanfiction. (Check out the Fanlib incident for a whole lot of very angry, articulate explanations about why.)
Reply
When it comes to fantasy series, especially ones that create a completely different world, with its own terminology, geography, etc., most of them will have encyclopedias or references, on-line or in print. I know there are a billion Middle Earth and Narnia ones out there, not written by either Tolkien or Lewis. Of course, they're dead. It's a bit of a gray territory, especially with on-line ones.
It's not actually a copyright violation to make those online, for instance, in the same way it wouldn't be for me to publish an essay about Ice and Fire, because it is simply explaining and listing the concepts of the books. I know, for instance, that Ice and Fire series has plenty (I had to read the first book in first year university, and had to refer to on-line guides for certain concepts and characters because I didn't have time to read it as thoroughly as I did the second time. :)) Nor is it or can it be classified as "fan fiction" in any shape or form.
What happened with JKR and that guy was a very... unwise person fighting a very... doomed battle from the very beginning, and I don't think it could be blamed on her allowing fan fiction. One of her main arguments was that she had herself planned on writing something akin to a Harry Potter reference/encyclopedia, and since she had decided that, there would be no reason to allow some random guy to make money off of it. Yet there are a few other books about her universe that she DID allow people to publish (like the Science of Harry Potter, which takes spells and mythology she used and relates it to the real roots in science or history), and none of them were fan fiction.
You're right in theory. JKR had had troubles in this general category when she was going to be sued by some person who claimed she stole names from her, I believe, fan fiction. It is unfortunate, and unpleasant, but first of all, I've never seen any fan WIN one of those battles, because frankly, they usually stem out of people's stupidity and ignorance of copyright and licensing laws.
Yet after both of those messes, she had not withdrawn her agreement for people to write fan fiction, though she was specifically asked somewhere right after whether that had spoiled her once eager support of it. It has not. There are hundreds of people writing and getting better and loving it and not being crazy out there, and for her, at least, that over weighed the couple of crazies she has had to deal with (but when you're a real popular artist of any kind, I can guarantee a couple of those can be expected somewhere along the road either way). There are.. unwise people everywhere, I've seen many authors get into ridiculous legal battles with fans when fan fiction wasn't involved at all.
But anyway. The instance you're talking about had little to do with fan fiction. The second instance I mentioned, she sued the person first for I don't remember what specifically, but it had something to do with making stupid allegations in the first place.
Reply
It is strange; I haven't thought about fan fiction in a while. I call it strange because like many, fan fiction is where I got my start at the keyboard. It was always a private affair, shared with close friends in print copies or email. I never posted it to the internet, nor, have I ever considered doing so. So it effectively avoided many of the issues mentioned here (not on purpose, just out of shyness).
Some time ago I evolved to the desire to publish my own work with my own worlds and my own characters. Ironic when you consider that my first paid writing work has been in a world of extremely vigorously guarded intellectual property (at the owner's invite and with them reviewing the output, I assure you).
Which brings me to my query- it seems that the domain of role playing games muddies the waters. Here, the author has essentially allowed people to pay a licensing fee to play in their world, and in many cases with their characters. Perhaps the license granters imagine that role playing is still only a group of people around a table in someone's living room, but this is not true. A great many groups play in text-based medium over the internet. They play in chat rooms and forums and via email. This leaves a text trail more or less identical to fan fiction. If this is done in a forum, it is there for the internet to see. Some groups might post logs to a website.
Now, I know that there is a Song of Fire and Ice role playing game. I'd be very curious how Mr. Martin thinks this weaves in to the topics at hand.
Reply
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