pixiv, why do you ruin my life?!: "Revolutionary Girl Utena" Edition

[greywing]

Oh god, I've discovered the Shoujo Kakumei Utena tag at pixiv.

Why is so much of it so pretty? Delicious ensemble pics. And cute?! ;_; Argh, we can't pretend this was a happy show!

Too. Many. Lush. Utena. Anthy. Pics. Really. For reals. On and NSFW on. Sigh. Never this happy canonically. Who tops? Neither (NSFW) in defiance of gravity!

Even

Comments

[jen_chan_shaw]

Ahh.. I don't quite remember Archimage, but I really really liked Jaquemart. I remember listening to a webcast once in which Alan said he was re-reading his own work and surprised by how close he actually was to the end for Jaquemart... *sigh*

Hmm... as for the 'Everyone is Bi' angle... I'm not sure I follow? It felt like sex was more about plays for power than sexual attraction, and gender was irrelevant in the power struggles. I kinda felt like everyone was straight really (hence Touga's discussion with Nanami, and even Utena saying "I am a totally normal girl who wants a totally normal boy" at some point), unless otherwise caught in Akio & Anthy's power struggle. Juri felt like the only one who really was gay, and was really beating herself up about it (to the point where Rukia feels like he needs to 'save' her)...?

Sometimes, I wonder how these neo-classical yuri series would fair (fare?) if they were released today. However far a ways there's still to go, gay's still already come a long way from 8 years ago (and most definitely from 24 years ago). Shizuru/Chikane's moral... shortcomings... are accepted/glossed over by yuri fans who just wanted some sort of representation, but I wonder if that would fly today with many other role models to choose from. As a teenager, I remember feeling great empathy for Juri, but rewatching RGU recently, I found myself saying, "dude, move on! There are other fish in the sea! Ones without pointy teeth!"

As to your reaction to Chikane... um... your gut feel's proooobably right. ^_^;; For me, a lot of the sympathy came from having to wait 3 months for the whole story to be told, and having so much more time to obsess and analyze. I remember watching the show as it was coming out week after week, slowly falling head of heels in love with her character during the first half, and then being so horrified and betrayed by the middle. By the time the ending and closure came several weeks after that, I was so heartbroken I was ready to accept anything... somehow, I don't think you'll have quite the similar experience... ^_^;;

cheers,

jen-chan

[arbitrary_greay]

My enjoyment factor for KnM wasn't Chikane, which was probably the only character arc given ANY writing thought, but Himeko, who was bland, unimpressive, unlikeable, and then forgave Chikane within one episode of the act, as well as reacting to Chikane's creepy-as-fuck (and obviously meant to be taken as romantic, blarg) confession with acceptance. (again, casting the creepy aspects of the relationship as positive, romantic, and even admirable) The consequences of everything were basically hand-waved. The plot would remain intact, even better off, if the rape and any scene directly referencing it were cut out, (chalk Himeko's shell-shock to abandonment issues or something) and that says volumes about the fact that the writer put it in anyways. Without the rape, Himeko is just Bella Swan. But with it, Himeko's actions through the end of the series take on seriously disturbing implications.

Chikane is at least a consistent character whose arc somewhat makes sense. And as you pointed out, other than a few creepy Edward moments here and there, was character you could like in the first half. (make-me-roll-my-eyes-too-perfect) The reasons to like Himeko other than her bod were just completely shoehorned, though.

[jen_chan_shaw]

I agree with you that the most unpalatable parts of KnM are Himeko's reactions post rape. >_< Seriously disturbing and seriously unhealthy and if KnM were only a story about a rape victim, it would be a very bad story indeed. But having said that though, I don't think that was the full story.

From the audience's point of view, it is believable that Chikane is capable of such atrocity because she is flawed. From Himeko's point of view though, Chikane's actions make no sense at all and needed further investigation, and ultimately, there *was* a reason (fantastical and involving of cosmic resets as it was) for it. If Himeko had reacted more realistically, and more 'healthily', I don't think the full story of Chikane's motivation would have been uncovered...

I don't know if the story would have been better off without the rape though... I hope I don't sound too horrible when I say this, but it's what gives the show... flavor? Not necessarily a "good" taste, but something that makes it other than bland. Without it, I don't know if the story was executed well enough to be memorable.

I didn't find Himeko all that likeable through most of the series either, but I thought her character had grown enough by the end of it all to become more admirable.

... on a slightly different note, can I just make the comment that, while Shizuru - in her own mind, might have "gone nuts", I don't think Chikane ever did? I think she knew exactly what she was doing at all times, and believed the ends justified the means...

... sorry, I hope I'm not being offensive with this post. Rape is not a subject that should be taken lightly...

[arbitrary_greay]

The investigation wasn't the problem. Thinking on it, even the "Chikane comes back acting like nothing happened, they spend a day acting like nothing happened" scenario might be plausible. (repressing memory of traumatic events)
But feeling safe in Chikane's arms at the end of that day? Pfffffft. Yeah, um, no.
That's till a nitpick, though. The big thing is that after the "investigation" is good and done, Himeko acts like there's nothing to forgive in her "forgiveness." As if they could be together without dealing with Chikane's unhealthy behavior. The biggest thing that irked me is at in the entire convesation during the climax, Chikane's all wailing about how her biggest crime was killing Himeko in the past life. No mention of the rape or any remorse for it. Himeko goes along with this as if the past life's ritual was the worst to happen to them and the duty-vs.-love issue was their biggest problem. It's not simply that the relationship is going to be unhealthy if they get together due to their actions, but that the story casts this unhealthiness as romantic and something to be desired, the proof of their love.

I don't know if the story would have been better off without the rape though... I hope I don't sound too horrible when I say this, but it's what gives the show... flavor? Not necessarily a "good" taste, but something that makes it other than bland. Without it, I don't know if the story was executed well enough to be memorable.

I agree that even without the rape, the story was rather shoddily done, but I can't say that flavor and memorability are anything to be proud of either. Lots of disgustingly memorable harem stories would be better off not being made at all. School Days, anyone?

I didn't feel like Himeko grew at all during the series. The appearance of her overcoming insecurity was an illusion, since we never saw any aftermath scenes of her dealing with similar situations in a different way. The epilogue with her memories wiped shows that she didn't change at all. (And I don't think the writers wanted her to change at all, since the point was that Chikane fell in love with her pre-series and she was already in that perfect state to be lovable)
And all of the narratives with their potential aesops were so muddled that I can't tell if her actions during the climax made any sort of admirable point.
The only somewhat admirable people in the series were Oogami and his brother. What the fuck.

while Shizuru - in her own mind, might have "gone nuts", I don't think Chikane ever did?
There was clearly a turning point in the anime when the one Orochi neck put Chikane through a mindfuck session that turned her from simply one-sided-love-benefactor to full-out-obsessive-possessive. I've read that the manga Chikane was with the Orochi the entire time, though. I think she knew what she was doing, but the pre-mindfuck Chikane would have never gone through with those urges, since that one was in a masochistic loop of helping Himeko with her relationship with Oogami.

[jen_chan_shaw]

As if they could be together without dealing with Chikane's unhealthy behavior. The biggest thing that irked > me is at in the entire convesation during the climax, Chikane's all wailing about how her biggest crime was > killing Himeko in the past life. No mention of the rape or any remorse for it.

Hmm... this is probably 8 years of my using-rose-tinted-glasses-to-fill-in-the-blanks talking, but I'm of the mind that the rape was NOT meant to be construed as positive, admirable behaviour at all, and that post cosmic reset, the rape would most definitely be issue number #1 that must be dealt with if C&H want any chance of a relationship with each other to last. Maybe it was the subs version I originally watched X years ago too, but I was also fairly certain that Chikane had mentioned that for the brutality she inflicted (ie, the rape), she did not deserve to be forgiven either...

There was clearly a turning point in the anime when the one Orochi neck put Chikane through a mindfuck session > that turned her from simply one-sided-love-benefactor to full-out-obsessive-possessive. I've read that the > manga Chikane was with the Orochi the entire time, though. I think she knew what she was doing, but the pre-> mindfuck Chikane would have never gone through with those urges, since that one was in a masochistic loop of > helping Himeko with her relationship with Oogami.

An alternative interpretation of this situation is that the mindfuck was *only* the catalyst that made Chikane admit to herself that she didn't just love Himeko in that chaste, fairy-tale way that children and white knights glorify, but that she also wanted Himeko in a completely sexual manner.

The catalyst that drove her to commit rape was different though; that was the sudden return of prior lives' memories that reminded her of the her duty to kill Himeko. When that happened, Chikane ceased to be "Himemiya Chikane, mostly-normal-if-Mary-Sueish-16-year-old", but became Lunar Priestess, "shit-I've-got-to-kill-the-one-I-love-or-else-millions-of-innocents-stay-dead-how-do-I-defeat-Orochi-without-having-to-do-this".

Honestly, I don't think Chikane raped Himeko for power or sexual gratification, or whatever reason rapists do what they do. She did it because she needed Orochi to believe that she was one of them so she could destroy them from the inside out. That Himeko would hate her enough to kill her and banish her was also a way to punish her for the atrocious act (like going to jail, forever). Himeko really wasn't supposed to see through all the bullshit to forgive her, and the fact that she did says something about Himeko's perceptiveness (although, admittedly on the surface, it makes her reaction to the rape unrealistic and disturbing)...

The appearance of her overcoming insecurity was an illusion, since we never saw any aftermath scenes of her dealing with similar situations in a different way. The epilogue with her memories wiped shows that she didn't change at all.

The changes were subtle, but they were there, I think. Himeko at the beginning of the series would not have been so forthright and confident when turning down Souma. Himeko at the beginning of the series probably would have whined 'stop it!' when Makoto was flirting with her rather than teasing her friend back. They're little things, but I think they're enough to show she's got a better sense of self worth now, which is why the rape *must* be dealt with in this future for them to make it.

I happily admit that KnM is *full* of flaws and is not the best yuri anime out there by a along stretch, and it takes a lot of rationalization and reading-between-the-lines and rose-tinted glasses to get there, but it still says something that the show's got a je ne sais quoi about it that allows some to even want to make the effort to think better of it...

... long post is long. My apologies. >_

[ifuritka]

I am full of words today thanks to this Afrodite champaigne and your discussion reminded me of something.

While the subject of rape or any other violence is very serious and always should be treated such, fandom, usually easily recognizing fiction from reality, works in mysterious ways.

In my country there was quite big representation of males in KnM fandom not surprisingly, isn't it shonen? ;D. The rape cause was of course discussed long and hard on boards, with general conclusions like you made above. So after everybody agreed that rape is bad, such dialogue happnend:
He: But I so want to be Himeko now!
She: Why?
He: Isn't it obvious? She was raped by the hottest gal evah. I so want to be raped by Chikane too!
She: orz
:DDD

Also I blame somehow KnM on how fandom saw Shizuru. Both series were aired at the same time, but KnM was shorter, so when Shizuru's time came, Chikane was already done. The similarities of characters and their actions were so striking, that bets 'Shizuru will do this and that because Chikane has done it already' were legendary :D So when this enigmatic scene 'what Shizuru did to Natsuki that night' came, many followed 'Chikane's way' even thought there was no proof enough - what greywing was so nice to point out in her essay.
At least Natsuki's reaction was much more realistic (but I still blame Hime Star ;D), what doomed poor Himeko even more (when compared).

There is something alluring in such anime like SKU, KnM, or even MH, probably because they have a tendency to blow up your mind. And obviously it's something we like to be done to our minds :D. That's why we love these shows with all their flaws, plotholes and annoying characters.

Have a nice Year :)

[jen_chan_shaw]

He: Isn't it obvious? She was raped by the hottest gal evah. I so want to be raped by Chikane too!
She: orz
:DDD

... please ignore me while I curl up in a ball in a corner of greywing's LJ here and cry. ;_; As you say, KnM is a shonen show, and I know I really shouldn't be surprised that there are such reactions. I'm just glad that the one board I was on at the time did not seem to share such sentiments (regardless of whether or not it was felt). ;_;

Also I blame somehow KnM on how fandom saw Shizuru.

Ahh, now there's a fascinating thought! I wonder how fandom would have seen Shizuru (and Chikane for that matter),if Mai Hime had happened one season earlier than KnM?

I must admit that Shizuru didn't seem as interesting to me as Chikane did specifically because Chikane had covered surface-level similar ground in recent memory, even though, in actuality, there is a key significant difference between them: Chikane made a choice which was morally wrong and was in possession of full mental faculties while doing so while Shizuru just broke; the speed and remorse with which she recovered after coming back suggests that she could not differentiate right from wrong when she killed a bunch of people - she really did just "go nuts".

Chikane should go to jail but Shizuru probably would have gone to a hospital...

And a happy new year to you too! ^_^ (sorry - I really hope I'm not coming off as picking a fight here, especially in someone else's home. Sorry greywing!)

[greywing]

(sorry - I really hope I'm not coming off as picking a fight here, especially in someone else's home. Sorry greywing!)

I don't mind. (I don't think you sound like you're picking a fight. If you do, then that means I must come off as the most belligerently argumentative person ever.) In fact, I love it when y'all break off into your own tangents and happily discuss among yourselves. I like to think this is a space where opinionated fans can have civil discussions.

Happy New Year!

[ifuritka]

... please ignore me while I curl up in a ball in a corner of greywing's LJ here and cry. ;_;
Uh-oh sorry to distress! The guy was not so willing when asked if it's ok to put Souma instead of Chikane... :D Good o'le flame wars... these good times... ;)

Ahh, now there's a fascinating thought! I wonder how fandom would have seen Shizuru (and Chikane for that matter),if Mai Hime had happened one season earlier than KnM?
This is something I won't even try to imagine, but somehow I believe there would be not much difference. :)

Chikane should go to jail but Shizuru probably would have gone to a hospital...
LOL good one. :D Don't get me wrong, but I made Chikane-Shizuru comparisons to make greywing see this exactly point - that Shizuru is not such badass she wants her to be :D I absolutely have no wish to discuss if Chikane is more interesting than Shizuru and why, I gladly agree with your opinion :) Because you know, I am Kuga's girl and I love Shizuru dearly as this girl attached to Nasuki. ;D Ok, I hope no die-hard Shizuru fan will read this ;DD
I must say that I love the outcome of this tendency to compare Chikane and Shizuru, which comes in a form of fics where these two exist in the same verse. The best ones are these where the two cooperate together. :)

Sorry greywing!
Oh no, no, no, greywing wanted us to hit her with our Yuri Power Ranking scale. So here we come! XD

[jen_chan_shaw]

I must say that I love the outcome of this tendency to compare Chikane and Shizuru, which comes in a form of fics where these two exist in the same verse. The best ones are these where the two cooperate together. :)

Oh! This! <3 Alas, I haven't been able to find very many of these fics (I need to try harder to look for them). The best one (by far) I think, is inter nos. ^__^

[arbitrary_greay]

Wow, I think the main thing I got out of watching KnM is that I now recognize whenever someone is paying tribute to that famous cover image. Saw an Utena edition today.

[greywing]

It took so many years for "Archimage" to be finished (I have to give Judy Justice mad props for actually finishing it) that it's only in the past few days as I was rereading it from beginning to end, having not read the end before, that I was pleasantly surprised to see how . . . WAFFy Anthy and Utena are. But not in the sense that their huge differences in temperament and experience and knowledge are disregarded. It's also an incredibly erudite fanfic, liberally casting about allusions to classical, feminist, and lesbian literature to the point where while I'd get the gist of the allusion, I definitely couldn't name all of them. The second half starts to feel more like the show itself, being surreal, but justifiably so. Like I said, my only real nitpick is that Utena is characterized as pretty much outright lesbian than a woman who just happens to be in love with another woman. It's actually not that long a read.

It felt like sex was more about plays for power than sexual attraction, and gender was irrelevant in the power struggles.

I think it's easy to see the sexual exchanges as one-way streets because we're shown the larger picture as the audience. But it takes two to tango (and for the most part we're to understand that the sex is consensual . . . in some cases more consensual than in others, but this is SKU, so accept everything on a scale/spectrum). The manipulator in these instances is, of course, using sex as a means to an ends, but often leading up to and in that moment, the other party isn't privy to that. There is sexual attraction, and sometimes the sex characters are implied to be having are actually trysts wherein they're using other people to work out sexual frustrations born of not being able to attain the true object of their desires. Like I said to Mary, SKU reiterates themes so that you have to look at it from a lot of angles. You have the "big players" engaging in sex-as-manipulation, but then there are smaller instances that make you pause. Someone like Kozue, who's implied to be loose, is a case of using sex to act out and drive her brother nuts. Doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy it though . . . or that it's not some twisted means of working out incestuous feelings and possessiveness. Even Shiori is an interesting case because her motivations and desires are all mixed up: she can use Ruka to hurt Juri and feel like she's being singled out and special since he is someone special and by being with him, she's elevated into that status as well.

I think Utena's case really underlines the two-way street break here. Akio takes her virginity as a weapon to use against her. And it's heartbreaking because Utena has been shown to us as an idealist, a romantic, someone who would probably view sex as something special and intimate and there she is being taken advantage of in the worst possible way. (We, the audience, know it. In all honesty, at 14 years old, Utena may not fully comprehend the decision she has . . . made? But then again, maybe she did.) It's supposed to feel wrong and jarring and that it does speaks to the complexity lent to events of the show because of the show's ambiguity. Consent is the question. What goes on between Akio and Utena is, at its most technical, statutory rape. But Akio throws the implication of consent and knowledge in her face, doesn't he?

Does that make any sense? Because I often feel like a crazy person when I try to talk about SKU. It's a deeply unsettling show and it should be. If it doesn't unsettle you on some level, I'd be a little worried.

[jen_chan_shaw]

Lol, you make sense (mostly), though I have the strange sensation that we're not quite talking about the same thing anymore. ^_^ RGU is unsettling, but in a captivating-unsettling way that makes you want to think about it more, as opposed to revolting-unsettling, I think...

I think I agree with you when you say it takes two to tango, but that this also applies to the power struggle: both parties are trying to get an edge over the other - there isn't just one party trying to manipulate the other. Both are trying to. Touga sleeps with Akio to get some sort of edge over him; Akio is amused that Touga would try to play the game with him. Kozue "plays" with Anthy in the sideways car mostly to get a rise out of Miki... I can't really think of any example where homosexual sex is just for the sake of sexual release. But I guess, on the other hand, I also can't really think of an example where any sex is just for the sake of sexual release...

Hmm... do I think Utena consented... I am fairly certain that she did (statutory rape aside, though, how does that really work if one party is actually 700 years old?); it wouldn't really serve Akio's purpose otherwise? The strength of Utena though, is that I think it is implied that she manages to recover from it. Doesn't matter what sort of emotional/psycological horrors Akio (& Anthy) put her through. Even while bleeding and facing death, she stays true to herself, and does what she knows is right. In that way, Utena's almost a biblical figure...

[greywing]

We did skip to different pages; I stopped talking about homosexual sex specifically and had moved onto SKU's theme of sex in general. XD Which is something that SKU excels at. I mean, they even pit homosexuality and heterosexuality explicitly against each other in the Ruka-Juri-Shiori triangle. Which is interesting because Ruka has sex with Shiori to use her to get to Juri but he ultimately wants "real," "genuine," "loving" sex with Juri. If "homosexuality is bad," Ruka's heterosexual treatment of Shiori and Juri isn't any better.

both parties are trying to get an edge over the other

Once you expand this to consider all the sexual interactions, not in all cases. I mean, do you think Utena was trying to manipulate Akio or get an edge on him? It's interesting in that the one thing I think SKU's world does seem to say about sex is that it's rarely, if ever, just about sex. No one here seems to have sex for the sake of sex alone.

(statutory rape aside, though, how does that really work if one party is actually 700 years old?)

Even if Akio had actually been a man in his 20s or 30s, that statutory rape clause would have still applied and you'd still be faced with the same questions.

Utena's almost a biblical figure...

Yes. If we're to understand that her revolution worked, it took Utena's sacrifice to do it. Utena's story ties in closely with all the understandings and implications of what it means to be a Prince in fairy tales. To save the day, to be almost selflessly heroic, as Dios was before his Fall to become Akio. But SKU doesn't shy away from looking at seemingly "selfless" actions that can be also "selfish." Everything is relative in the SKU world. (Or hopelessly buried beneath ambiguous symbolism and metaphor.)

[greywing]

Fare, I think.

As a teenager, I remember feeling great empathy for Juri, but rewatching RGU recently, I found myself saying, "dude, move on! There are other fish in the sea! Ones without pointy teeth!"

I think this is more a sign of us, the audience, growing up. (Which is what SKU is all about, yo!) You have to remember what it was like being in high school, in a small world (that, depending on your experience, could be gossipy and petty and clique-y and everyone up in everyone else's business), not knowing that the world is so much bigger and that there are other people like you and that there are other fish in the sea and you won't be stuck with all the same faces in such a small space for eternity. Akio deliberately built Ohtori like this, to be a very small world, to be enclosed. To break the world's shell is to leave his little world as well.

I recently read "The Letter Q," which is a collection of letters that LGBT authors were asked to write to their younger selves. Seeing them remember what it was like to be their younger selves and seeing how far they've come, it's a matter of perspective shift. There are many people who talk about reading a work or seeing a work at just the right time in their lives, when they're ready and able to understand it. For us, these classic anime may have come out at just the right time or we stumbled on them just when they could most impact us. XD

KnM: AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ah, the heady days, when you're part of an active fandom for an in-progress show! I've been revisiting Fullmetal Alchemist lately and have been reminded how different it was to read the work when a chapter was coming out just once every month. Man.

[jen_chan_shaw]

Heh - I wonder what the Utena cast would say if they could write letters to their younger selves...

For us, these classic anime may have come out at just the right time or we stumbled on them just when they could most impact us. XD

Ah, tru dat! ^_^