Church

[greenpad]

I just read a bunch of comments on a friend's post where they all basically said that "church was boring so I stopped going", and then went on to talk about how they aren't clear on what they believe and other such things.  I wrote a comment about it, but it was way longer than 4300 characters, so it wouldn't let me post the comment.  I decided to

Comments

[ncschmoo]

I'll accept the lecture... since I was the only one who actually said they thought most churches were boring. I think you lumped too many people into the "where they all basically said" part. Everyone on my post has different stories to tell. I'm not ashamed to talk about my beliefs, I just think they will upset a lot of my friends. My beliefs are pretty solid, I just think that they would rattle a few too many people to voice them out loud. And most folks are NOT looking for a religious discussion over LJ, so if anytime you want to sit and discuss, I'm open

[recran]

couple of quickie points:
1. you're talking about numbers. that's old testament. lotta stuff changed when jesus came to town.
2. in order to be a christian, there is only one requirement: belief and acceptance of jesus as the savior. all the rest of the stuff - being a good person type stuff - that's supposed to simply become more obvious through the acceptance of jesus.

[ncschmoo]

1) You made some of my point for me. It depends on a person's perspective about the bible. To some folks, it doesn't matter if it's Old Test. or New Test., the Word is the Word. Should you only listen to Jesus and not to the Lord? Did the laws/rules change over time? Or is it that Jesus showed folks how to forgive in a society of stoning? Etc.

2) And this is where my beliefs differ than others. I'm not as focused on the life and times of Jesus as I am on the morals/guidelines ("The Pirate code: they're more like guidelines anyway!") provided through the doctrine. Also, I have a big hang up on the forgiveness... I'll ask for it when I feel I deserve it, and that isn't today. To be forgiven for past transgressions you should feel remorse/sorry for them otherwise it is an empty forgiveness... I'm still mulling over some of my past life. It's something I personally have to get past.

[greenpad]

I only have 4 minutes till a meeting, but...

1) When Jesus died, he created a new covenant with us. If someone believes the Bible literally, as even I do, they will believe it when it says that everything changed. Yes, laws/rules changed at that point. When Jesus said his death would bring a new covenant.

2) It is true that you have to truly repent. Simply praying a simple prayer doesn't do squat. In fact, some of my studies lately have talked about how we've erroneously started saying that everyone should just "pray the prayer" and they'll be saved. In reality it requires real repentance and giving your life over, which is no easy decision to make.

As far as the morals/guidelines part, I'm curious why you give it more weight than his other teachings?

[recran]

1) that's what i'm talking about. if you dig the old testament rules and just think of the new testament as cool life lessons but don't believe jesus was the savior, that's (traditional) judaism. if you think the whole bible has some good lessons but don't believe jesus was the savior, that means you're probably a good person, maybe a modern jew, but not a christian.

2) ya - that's part of a for-real acceptance of jesus.

3) i like it when people believe SOMETHING. shows they're thinking about stuff. i like it when people think.

[ncschmoo]

#1) Which means that the rules of God changed over time. The big thing is that forgiveness was added. Bible literalists (generalization) will say that these new rules are it. There are no more changes. But me, I'm not so sure. As for the stoning thing, yes the Old Test was more of a witch hunt in some aspects (may sinners were punished by mobs) and the New Test brought about the "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone..." forgiveness attitude. I guess Jesus forgave rather than picking up a stone and tossing it himself

[wifee]

1.) "The big thing is that forgiveness was added"

Forgiveness was there. The Israelites had to make an alter and sacrifice a clean lamb and ask for forgiveness in that way. The shedding of the blood's lamb was the sacrifice given in repentance for their sins. They did this often. When Jesus came and died on the cross, he became the "ultimate lamb," meaning that no one had to sacrifice the lambs anymore because Jesus was the sacrifice and paid in full all the sins that had been and that would be. But in order to receive this forgiveness, you need to believe in who He is.

[ncschmoo]

Good point. But the example from the Old Testament puts God in a 'harsher light' where certain things were punished by death. The sinner was not given a chance to repent. This is one of the changes between the Old and the New. That was what I meant by forgiveness. You are now given a chance to be repentant and forgiven without fear of being judged/punished by peers. (And that's not completely true... peers judge each other all the time, we just don't do it with the same mob mentality

[recran]

1) actually jesus was in the works from the beginning. lots and lots of stuff in the old testament about the savior coming. so... the rules didn't really change; god just finally did what god promised to do all along.

re hypocrites: although they bug the cr@p out of me too, i just try to remember that no one is perfect. and the whole point of christianity is the recognition that no one is perfect. so it's not fair to expect someone to be perfect just cuz she's a christian.

2) re worship: i think worship can help a person to grow in the other areas. i adore worship, but it's not just cuz it's fun to sing - it's cuz it reminds me of the big lessons.

father, son, and holy ghost - one in three "persons." it's all god to me, just different purposes for each.

out of steam

[ncschmoo]

I'm not a singer, so that part doesn't appeal to me.

[greenpad]

1) Yeah, the rules did change when Jesus died. That's not something that will happen again. However, the Old Testament had plenty of references to the changes before they happened, so there is consistency there

[ncschmoo]

Wrapping up on that last paragraph...

Everyone has different questions about their faith/beliefs. There are a lot of intersections, but what one person takes on blind faith, another may doubt and doubt forever. Unfortunately, I'm not much of a faith person... I need questions answered in order to accept things. And this goes back to the origin of my "church is boring" comment. The church did not answer the questions I have because I was not in a good scenario to find answers to MY particular questions. So I decided to put my faith on the shelf for a while and wait until I matured enough to understand my own questions. And when I was ready, I would go in search of those answers. You made that effort on your own a long time ago. I'll make that effort eventually. I'm not normally a procrastinator (okay, except for the dissertation), but I do realize that soul-searching can be a consuming process at times and I need to clear time (and a clear mind) to do it.

[jw22]

Yeah I think you prety much summed up my beliefs. And for some religions they do not believe in Jesus and therefore by other religion standards those people are going to hell? I just have a hard time believing that and I don't feel it's our place to judge people like that. I know many jewish people who are great people and beleve something and go every sunday and worship...and so in my mind they are good, moral people. Part of me thinks religion just teaches people that they are right and others are therefore wrong and going to hell or are bad people because they don't belive what you do. And I def do not believe in teaching that kind of hate and judgement. More wars have been caused over religion than any other thing, Anyway, Im with ya on this.

[recran]

hmm... you have apparently been exposed to some rotten christians to think that they hate and judge everyone who's not christian. i hope you will listen to some other christians because what you think about christians is the exact opposite of what jesus taught. christianity is not about "judging people" - it's a belief that god is the only judge. we christians are supposed to love EVERYONE.

a random aside: i think jesus was like a hippie and would dig asheville for all its variety of people.

[greenpad]

I have a really hard time with this concept of a "good person". I know my own heart and my thoughts and can tell you that I am not a good person. Anything I do that is "good" is a challenge. I default to selfishness, and I'm only good when I want to be. I look around the world and it's apparent that humanity as a whole is not "good". So I don't see how anyone can claim that they are a good person. I certainly can't.

As far as judging goes....we're all judged by God, and we're all guilty. Every single one of us deserves hell. That's the bottom line. So it's not that I walk around judging people, it's that I walk around knowing what I know and wanting to help those that I love. I'm not the one saying that we deserve to go to hell--the Bible says that. Any hatred that is brought into it comes from our human side. If I truly hated someone I wouldn't want them to be saved, and I'd spare myself the effort and uncomfortableness of talking to them about it.

[recran]

oh, and i'm totally with you on the good person thing. people are inherently selfish. i am so so so so soooo guilty of that.