Losing Your Place

[harmony_bites]

Title: Losing Your Place
Challenge: Bookmark challenge
Team: The Order
Words: 100
Rating: PG
Characters: Hermione, Severus, Ron

We buried Snape yesterday-seven witnesses, but no real mourners, though it’s creepy how much Harry is now making of the git

Comments

[kribu]

good husband material

A bit dull and slow? And very fond of his family? ;-) (Even if this is mostly apparent in the way he is looking for a mother figure, basically someone to adore him and to cook for him and to clean for him and to pack the right clothes, dammit, not the old jeans which don't fit too well any more!)

I've never seen Ron as potentially abusive, just not very reliable. Which is not necessarily all that much better. But there is a clear pattern to Ron's behaviour through the series - getting into a huff over the slightest issues (whether real or just existing in his own mind), sulking for weeks or months, running off and ignoring the issue for lengthy periods... I saw people (Ron fans) shocked at the way he left the others in DH, claiming it was just the locket that caused that - nope, I don't think so, not with the prior pattern established (although the locket surely didn't help).

Gah. I really shouldn't get into rants about Ron. ;-) They always make it sound as if I hate the poor sod, which I don't, but I do think he's far from the ideal trustworthy friend figure.

[harmony_bites]

I've never seen Ron as potentially abusive, just not very reliable.

I once read an essay--on Mugglenet--which listed these behaviors typical of domestic abusers from an article then matched up Ron's canon behavior--and did so uncomfortably well (albeit, the essay was by a H/Hr shipper).

Basically, Ron mistreats Pigwidgeon and Scabbers (or at least is disparaging), he pushed first years out of his way and out of chairs as a prefect, whenever a pretty girl is in the room he ogles them and ignores Hermione, he is so insanely jealous he went into an absolute snit over Ginny *suggesting* Hermione *might* have kissed Viktor--two years ago.

And then there's that book in DH. 12 Ways to Woo Your Witch (including Ron said, even spells) and then it seems flatters and pretends to care about others to manipulate Hermione--not because he's changed.

Believe it or not, I rather like Ron too--I made an effort to write a Ron-POV one-shot and to read hundreds of R/Hr to try to get his appeal and to be fair to him. But man, sorry to get on a rant myself, but whenever I hear that Hermione would choose Ron over Snape because he's "nicer" I wonder what books they read. I think Luna's right--Ron's not very nice.

[kribu]

Ah yes, I see what you mean. The problem is, I guess, that I did not read any of those things as pointing to a potential abuser, more - well - behaving like a "typical" teenage boy.

In other words, I've viewed Ron as selfish, careless and thoughtless, causing harm by not actually meaning to, but not so much a bully on purpose (unlike James Potter and Sirius Black). But most definitely not someone I would want to consider husband material - especially, as seen in the epilogue, he's not really grown out of that sort of behaviour or attitude and not matured (as I dearly hoped he would, for Hermione's sake!).

I guess one could say the difference between Snape and Ron is that when Snape hurt people with his words/actions, he knew what he was doing, while Ron was mostly oblivious to it (although I have a hard time believing even he could have been stupid enough not to realise he was hurting Hermione when quite demonstratively being all over Lavender in HBP). On the other hand, I would say this also means that Snape (an adult Snape anyway) would likely not hurt/harm someone when he doesn't mean to do that, while Ron quite likely would.

[harmony_bites]

On the other hand, I would say this also means that Snape (an adult Snape anyway) would likely not hurt/harm someone when he doesn't mean to do that, while Ron quite likely would.

Snape is very different with Lily (and even Narcissa) then he is with the Gryffindor students. Kind, nice even--other than that "Mudblood" which he so regretted he kept vigil outside Lily's rooms to apologize. I can't imagine Ron doing that. So you might be right--it's just that Ron is thoughtless, but in the end that could mean he causes all the more hurt and would never grow out of it.

I've never much agreed with the teen excuse though--I can't imagine Harry or Neville acting the way Ron did--and as you say--the epilogue shows that even as a thirty-something...

But hey--all grist for our mill.

[kribu]

I've never much agreed with the teen excuse though

I'm generally not in favour for that excuse either, but theoretically, I'm willing to believe that some people do grow out of it. Not that they necessarily become nicer people, but that they at least learn to understand what their behaviour means, and modify it accordingly. Besides, we're supposed to believe that James Potter for instance grew out of it.

But on the other hand, growing out of it does probably require the person to understand how he's behaving, and I'm not too sure Ron does. There was hope for that for a little while in DH - when he returned, when he realised that even Dumbledore seems to have known he'd be likely to behave as an idiot - but then the epilogue sort of crushed that hope again. (And the whole thing with the return bugs me anyway - would he have come back if he could have gone home properly and not feared his parents' wrath?)

Also, he really came back for Harry. Not Hermione. He didn't seem to show any indication of actually caring for Hermione all through the books - apart from getting insanely jealous at the thought of her liking some other guy, he never really showed any active interest in Hermione in particular. It was clear enough that she liked him (not that I know why), but it never really seemed clear to me that he wanted her, specifically, apart from a vague sense of her being there and thus the natural choice - and being angry at the thought of his Hermione ("his" by virtue of being his friend, I suppose, his "property" in a way) choosing some other bloke over him.

I think this is really what bugs me the most about that relationship - it would have been a lot easier to take, I think, if we'd got any indication of Ron actually being in love with Hermione, the way she seems to have been with him.

[harmony_bites]

Besides, we're supposed to believe that James Potter for instance grew out of it.

Why do I find that so hard to believe? Or forgive?

But yes, you're right, a lot of the problem is how Ron acts in the epilogue (especially in contrast to Harry) He still acts like an idiot.

FWIW, this is the article that makes the case for Ron as a potential abuser--with one of the key elements being Ron seeing Hermione as a possession:

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-king01.shtml

Of course, I don't believe Rowling believes or intends this, nor do I completely buy the article. But I think you do put your finger on something with Ron--that mostly, the way his love is expressed and shown is through jealousy and by taking it out on Hermione. In comparison, Snape clearly loved Lily, was clearly jealous of James--but he never takes it out on her.

Which is not to say Snape doesn't have a wealth of issues--ones that perhaps those who love the character a little less than we do might do better at picking out (though for some strange reason every time I hear a counterargument against SSHG it seems to come down to Snape being old and ugly--and I think Hermione is less superficial than that).

As for why Hermione liked Ron? Well, who else liked her? Viktor was far away. And she's not Ginny. I never got the feeling from the books she was popular and were it not for the troll incident she might not have gotten any friends at all. It's another thing in which I think she's like Snape (and yet another reason why I think we must save them by putting them together--yes, I do). It's nice to be loved--rather than just used for your brain.

[kribu]

Thanks for that link. It certainly had a lot of food for thought.

It is rather interesting how HBP in particular seemed to be a turning point for Ron in many ways - there were signs in the earlier books, but it was in HBP that I really found him quite unpleasant. Not the funny, somewhat awkward sidekick with some issues (mostly the constant need/demand for attention and being jealous of both Harry and Hermione), but someone quite a bit more - unkind, as Luna said. And the aggressive jealousy / possessiveness really bothered me - it felt a lot like "this is my toy, I might not really care for it but I'll be damned if I let anyone else play with it".

And I do agree about Snape - not the nicest of men, and I do have certain problems with his teaching methods (although I think most of those - being rather anti-Gryffindors in particular, prejudice against Harry - can be explained, if not excused, by his former treatment at the hands of Gryffindors), but there was never really any indication that he would ever get physically abusive with anyone.

Obviously, we don't know what he did during his brief time as a "real" Death Eater, but after that, I think we can be fairly sure he wouldn't be the type to physically abuse anyone. Verbal abuse is another matter - but he never showed any signs of practising that with anyone he actually may have cared for or respected, such as a friend or a colleague.

And I sort of agree about James Potter - I don't think he grew out of it entirely (certainly not while still at school, even if he started covering it up from Lily that he was still bullying Severus), but from the little we know, I think he might have matured a bit after settling down with a family. At the very least, he seemed like a decent husband and father - which is something I'm not too confident about with Ron (never mind that Lily seemed rather more suited to James than Hermione to Ron anyway).

[harmony_bites]

Thanks for that link. It certainly had a lot of food for thought

It does--though King, a H/Hr shipper, doesn't always play fair--she cites this incident for instance as an example of Ron being violent:

HBP pg. 285: Ron punches Demelza Robins in the mouth!

For once she doesn't quote--just summarizes, and when I went looking found she hadn't played fair--Ron hits completely Demelza by accident in Quidditch Practice.

But yes, HBP, more than anything is what makes me sputter at the thought of R/Hr. I'm writing a WIP now that shadows HBP, so I have to reread parts constantly. Ron's treatment of Hermione is just particularly unfair and cruel there.

And I do agree about Snape - not the nicest of men, and I do have certain problems with his teaching methods (although I think most of those - being rather anti-Gryffindors in particular, prejudice against Harry - can be explained, if not excused, by his former treatment at the hands of Gryffindors), but there was never really any indication that he would ever get physically abusive with anyone.

I think we can play with several things when it comes to Snape. I've read several articles--and fanfic--that does a nice job of defending Snape as a teacher almost point for point, duj especially. Then there's the point you make above--Dyce particularly emphasizes that in Survivors--that Harry would bring back all of Snape's worse memories and traumas--particularly since everyone keeps emphasizing how Harry looks *exactly* like James. IOW, Harry brings out the absolute worse in him. Even other Gryffindor classes might have a different experience of him as a teacher. And there is also the fact that he did have a role he had to play as an ersatz DE. A combo of the three, plus his capacity for change, for fanfic purposes at least, can help us in creating a Snape that would fit with Hermione.

Given the epilogue, I'd find that an easier task than convincing R/Hr.

[kribu]

I wondered about the bit about Demelza, as I didn't remember Ron hitting her on purpose. Most of the other quotes were quite accurate though, I think - and scary, when collected together like that.

I still don't think Ron would get physically abusive towards Hermione - if not for any other reason then because he'd know Hermione's skills with her wand - but there are plenty of other ways for him to keep hurting her in a long-term relationship.

I also agree about Snape - I do think he might have been somewhat less cruel towards other Gryffindor classes than towards Harry and his closest friends (or Neville, who he probably considered a real danger in the classroom and tried in his own way to get him to see sense, just that it wasn't quite the right way - but then, I don't think Snape ever got any training on how to be a teacher and how to handle children with problems; he certainly would not have had positive experiences from his own youth to draw upon).

I think Snape's detentions, for instance, say a lot of positive things about him (and not even just when compared to Umbridge!) - I can't really remember him assigning detentions without any reason at all, and when he did, they were never really too bad IMHO (although I can see why the kids would disagree).

[harmony_bites]

In terms of Snape there was an article defending him as a teacher on the net and why they actually thought he acted as an excellent teacher--unfortunately no longer available--but one point it made I remember was that Umbridge herself said that Snape's class was "advanced" for its level and that Snape expected his class to get "high passes" (ie Es) on their OWL. More than that, Snape expected to fill his Advanced Potions classes only with Oustandings--I think that alone is a tribute to his teaching.

Nor is Snape as unfair as Harry--or many readers claim or even SSHG shippers write him--I was struck on reread that despite Harry's resentment his points taken off by Snape in Philosopher's Stone were often for good reasons--they were low numbers too--sometimes consisting of just one point. Gryffindor lost lost lots of points due to McGonagall actually in that book--not Snape. And not once, in any book, despite Harry complaining about not getting points--does Snape give points to anyone--not even Slytherin, not even Draco. And no one ever complains about their final grades being unfair--Harry is so sure he passed because Dumbledore must have *made* Snape grade fairly--but we don't know that.

As for Ron as an abuser, physically--I admit I find it hard to believe--someone using that in a fic would have a hard time with me. Partly because I don't believe Hermione would put up with it. That's part of why if you write SSHG at all in a romantic sense, I'm not going to buy an abusive, predatory Snape, let alone an abusive Ron.

Otoh, some really smart, otherwise confident women sometimes get into abusive situations.

But despite it being a little scary how well King made Ron fit the profile, I still find it hard to see Ron as a potential batterer. I don't think it's that Ron wouldn't hit Hermione because she's a witch. Did that ever stop him with Draco? I don't know that I can say why--but I just can't see Ron that way. He'd hurt Hermione, I think--hurt her badly. He's done so before and I think he'd continue to. I could easily see him as unfaithful, for instance. But not physically abusive--and he'd never mean to hurt her.