Oh noooooo! I didn't know Clonfert was going to die! *cries and hides* I'm only at The Mauritius Command. Well don't give me any details! Aww.
Mind if I voice my opinion on your reasons? Or have you defended your position a million times over already?
1. Fugly - well on the outside, I don't care (and I don't believe it either. I think Cecilia Williams says he's "almost handsome" at one point) and on the inside, I don't think he's fugly at all! But that's just opinion.
2. But he rescues Jack too! And Jack drives HIM up the wall sometimes! They both have an equal share of that, and they both have an equal love for each other too. Sometimes he's Jack's only friend and equal. Also, even though Jack has to rescue him, he's also instrumental in bringing lots of really GOOD things for Jack, like ships and chances at big prize money, and Sophia! (I hope you don't hate her?)
3. Aww, I don't think he's any of those things. He's not a swashbuckler like Jack, but someone unmanly and wimpish wouldn't take the huge risks that Stephen takes with being a spy or even just being a naval surgeon. An unmanly wimp would have quit immediately after the first voyage.
4. He didn't cause Dillon's death! Dillon died in battle. And dear sweet Dil, that was just tremendously unlucky. Plenty of other children wearing bracelets were running around without being robbed and killed. Naturally he would feel responsible, sickened, devastated, ghastly. But it was just unlucky. And Canning - it's understandable (though regrettable) that Stephen should have dueled with him after Canning struck him with a blow. It would have been irregular NOT to duel. I think Canning was specifically inviting a duel by striking him. But Stephen didn't intend to kill Canning. If Canning hadn't been aiming to kill STEPHEN, then Stephen wouldn't have been wounded so that he had to switch hands, and missed his aim. Unfortunate, but Canning had the more evil intention, and it caused his own death.
But are those the only characters you've fallen for? I did quite like Dillon, and LOVED Dil, was more or less indifferent to Canning (though sad when he died), and I do like Clonfert. But I also love Bonden, Scriven, Sophie, and I'm beginning to like Diana more. And I'm fond of Pullings. And of course I love Jack. Not nearly as much as I love Stephen though.
Should I tell you why I love him? Or have you argued that one a million times too?
You're from Spain? Ooh! Are you from the Català-speaking part, or elsewhere? Haha, hablo un poco de espanol, pero hablo tambien italiano y frances. A veces soy muy... confusa. He estudiado espanol en escuela, y me he olvidado casi todos. Phew! I write better, scrivo meglio, quando scrivo come Jack, usando tutti les langues, tutti ensemble, per la amusement, diverto, degli mi amici. ;D Mi piacebbere, me gusta, vous prendere per une amie. D'accord?
A glass of Maderia with you would please me no end. Visibilium et invisibilium!
Pardon my strangeness. I'm not always this strange. It's been a very long week.
Tee hee, you´re certainly a worthy defender of St Mathurin *waves white flag* I call him fugly because he´s so - well - gross, not bathing and covered in dirt and marmalade and dead tissue and the like... when I´m reading the books I can´t help but picture a scowling, bitter, rancorous zombie midget, sorry :p Not a dashing caballero at all! Also, Dillon was dead jealous of the instant close rapport between Jack and Maturin, and just like Maturin´s suicidal in most of the books, Dillon´s so unhappy because of that it´s probably a big part of why he seeks and finds death in battle *sob* Also Maturin deliberately provoked Canning abusing his hospitality and insulting him in every possible way, and however he tried to kid himself afterward when regret and guilt were eating him inside, he *did* want to kill Canning so have Diana back (I´m so glad she didn´t play ball, he he.)
Ohhh, I love so many characters... Sir Joseph, Killick, Bonden, Dr Ramis, the dear Rose-Pod, Diana, Mrs Broad (from The Grapes), and especially Mowett *blushes and hides* but above all I´m smitten with Jack *g*
Please do share why you love Maturin - so many people do but then most realize it´s the dandyish and totally not canon Movie!Maturin they fell for. As I didn´t take the movie one seriously, and seriously detest the book version of the Doctor, I´d very much like to know what makes him lovable, and admirable, for you :)
Brava, te entiendo perfectamente y lo escribes bien, enhorabuena! Soy de Madrid, ma anche parlo l´italiano et aussi je me débrouille en français s´y on a besoin, et me encantaría añadirte como amiga, totallement d´accord!
Reply part 1!grace_poppyNovember 12 2006, 23:48:10 UTC
Oh, I'd never call Stephen a dashing caballero in my widest dreams, hee! And yes, never bathing and being covered in filth is unpleasant. But he and I rarely meet in person, so I can only write him letters advising him to bathe and trust that he'll take my advice. I can't see or smell him. I'm sure he'll clean up when he comes to visit me though.
I expect Dillon would be similarly unhappy in his situation if Stephen had been absent. He'd have a well-meaning but tactless captain who claimed to hate Irish and catholics, and there'd be no one to tell him, "Jack's really not so bad, and he respects you a lot..." As for seeking death in battle - he was swashbuckling with the best of them, and Stephen said he looked joyously happy - "The light on his face!" To say he was seeking death in the battle is a romantic notion, and I don't believe it. If he had wanted to die, he wouldn't have fought with such vigour and joy. If anything, Stephen alleviated much of Dillon's despair by offering friendship, sympathy, and a non-judgmental listening ear.
And Canning was the one who offered the gravest insult, by striking Stephen. And even if Stephen did want to kill him, (of which I'm not convinced), he didn't intend to kill him. Canning did intend to kill Stephen though. Hmph, and if Canning had really loved Diana, I don't think he would have exposed her to such scandal. Of course, she's equally to blame, but still - he wanted to keep his wife who was joining him in India, and he wanted to keep Diana for himself on the side, keeping her in limbo, neither married nor available, hardly able to leave the house without society scowling at her. She had to share Canning with his wife, but he got to have both women all to himself. Hmph. (Not that that's unusual - but Stephen wouldn't have done anything to besmirch the reputation of a lady he loved.) It was degrading, which is why she was crying on Stephen's shoulder.
I like Canning, really. And so did Stephen. And Diana is highly to blame, but I sympathize with her (though it took me a while). I guess Canning made her an offer she couldn't refuse, and she accepted. But, if he'd been a more honorable man, he wouldn't have tempted her into such a painful situation.
Reply part 2!grace_poppyNovember 13 2006, 00:57:17 UTC
Two separate replies, since the first was getting so long! And I hadn't even started on the reasons why I love Stephen! A lot of them are because I identify with him, share some of the same character traits. It may be vanity, but I believe people often like characters that remind them of themselves, or versions of themselves portrayed in benevolent light. I'll list my reasons in no particular order:
I'm predisposed to like doctors. I love anatomy, and medicine, and the whole compassionate notion of preserving life and healing.
I love birds, animals, fish, plants, rocks, geography, natural history, all that naturalist stuff! And I love how enthusiastic and happy Stephen is when he finds a new specimen. It's so endearing - and so cute!
I love his ability to read people's character and understand their emotions. He's an understanding listener, and he also understands subtle signs that betray people's feelings even when they don't say anything. Plus he's compassionate and fair. He's often reserved and aloof, but he's reserved in judgment as well. He isn't naive (which I often am, being too quick to see the good in everyone), but he's good about looking at the person's whole character, not just focusing on their flaws (even if the person is rather foolish and pathetic). He's sensitive. And he usually instinctively knows what to do with other people's emotions.
I guess I appreciate and sympathise with his emotions all around. I'm usually quite good at reading people's minds and cradling their more fragile emotions - but then I'm often secretly an emotional mess inside, like Stephen. Very introspective. I used to write looong secret journal entries like he does, but now I'm better about talking to my friends about such things instead (which, I think, comes more naturally to females than to males). But I often suffer from loneliness, depression, self-loathing and near-despair like he does, so I sympathise and feel SUCH an affectionate compassion for him, the poor dear. (And I wish for laudanum.)
The emotional connection is the greatest attraction for me. I liked him in the movie when I had no other reference (though I was disappointed that they made the beautiful Paul Bettany look so ugly, haha), and I had the most stirring affectionate compassion when he was wounded (my maternal or nursing instinct, I suppose - I do love feeling compassionate!) and I was delighted and envious of his joy at all the Galapagos creatures. But I didn't really fall in love until I read the book, when I was able to see his emotional thought processes. Two of my favorite scenes are when he wakes up on the hillside with tears in his eyes after a dream about his lost love, and he's so upset to find a grease stain from the meat in his pocket (even though he knows it's irrational to be so upset), and he's wondering if there really is a possibility of becoming a naval surgeon (and did Jack really mean it, or was he just being over-exuberent and friendly after too much wine?). And then later, he's heading for the Sophie to meet Jack, and he sees her sailing away - dismay! He had been suppressing his emotions so vigilantly, guarding against letting his hopes rise too high, arguing with himself and warning himself that it might be too good to be true - but now, seeing the lovely ship with her sails departing, he realized that his hopes had risen in spite of his best efforts, and he had already had so many disappointments, and didn't know how he would be able to bear another. GAH! The poor dear! I understood exactly, and I sympathised dreadfully, poor darling, and I loved him!!
(Haha, I'm in such an emotional state myself that writing about that passage just now drove me to bite my nails, something I NEVER do. Oh the angst!)
Reply part 3!grace_poppyNovember 13 2006, 00:58:42 UTC
Well, and what else? Goodness me, I had to start a third post!
Oh, I'm usually attracted to highly intelligent over-educated men. ;D Especially if they're enthusiastic like he is. Also, I think he's quite amusing with his snarky comments. And I love his sweet affection for Jack, and for Sophie (who also reminds me of myself), and for Bonden, and Sir Joseph, and Pullings... And I adore his friendship with Dil, neither condescending nor aloof - not many men can be such equal companions with a young girl. And equality is so noble in Stephen, and pure. Even just learning the language and adapting to local customs wherever he goes - I love that. Oooh, I love languages too! And music.
I would love to just sit and talk to Stephen for days - talk about birds, music, travel, language, people, medicine, history... Oh! And I could color his drawings for him, since he feels that he lacks the skill.
Hmph, I'm sure Diana could never appreciate all those things the way I do!!! *pouts*
Brava cosi! Quanto mi piace hablar avec quelqu'une chi parla La Lingua di Jack! Esta une plaisir muy grandissima! Ma desolee' que non tengo les accents per la mia computador. "I am most deeply sorry, sir: most heartily ashamed," said the footpad, hanging his head. (Scriven! &hearts )
Ohhh, Scriven - another really lovable character (and Jack giving him away as a gift... classic!)
My, what a case you´ve set up for understanding and liking Maturin - fans of him are usually quite impassioned about it, but seldom find so many valid grounds to substantiate it :) I *still* can´t stand the man (guess it´s his bitterness and self-hatred, his complex of inferiority with his "how sorry and defensive I feel for myself for my poverty and bastardy and ugliness, blah blah" whereas Jack is far healthier and devil-may-care about that or his own corpulence and disfiguring scars; it´s also those frequent sarcastic barbs at the casualties of his cold turkey fits - even those people he likes best, like Jack, Sophie and Diana), but you´ve raised several excellent points of behaviour that redeem him (his deep respect for Dil as a worthy human being - so true!). His emotions usually are found in the negative range, and are strongest when he´s most angered or suffering - not attractive! And even when he´s (infrequently) happy, it´s either despite himself (though there´s nothing in Catholicism about happiness being sinful) or else it´s tinted with that ever-present, underlying bitterness. There´s no innocence and no undiluted, spontaneous joy de vivre in him; his little twisted demons sneak him and spoil even the light moments (for instance when he´s singing "cleanse me, etc" in the chains in HMSS and letting the sea spray over him - the verses immediately after that (which he doesn´t get to sing, but it gave me chills anyway) say, "for in sin I was conceived". Always bittersweet, too knowing, freighted with hidden guilt or remorse. When Jack´s happy, it´s like the whole ship takes off the water :D ).
I still think Maturin calculated exactly how to hurt Canning worst - he *was* as good as making love to Canning´s mistress under Canning´s own roof and anyway, Canning´s relationship with Diana was a mutually consented arrangement between adults and none of Maturin´s business (if he so loved Diana, why didn´t he propose in PC already? But no, someone *else* has to own her for him to take a renewed interest in her: first Jack, then Canning, then someone else I´m not giving away because you haven´t read that far along yet ;) Jealousy and rivalry are his prime amorous motivators, not selfless love for Diana´s own sake, she´s just some trophy to wrestle from the alpha male du jour, and that´s another trait I dislike in Maturin).
Mi piace anche molto parlare di questi caratteri, nonché vorrebbe amazzare il Dottore perchè mi rompe le scatole :p
Aww, but! It's not fair to dislike someone for being unhappy! Sure, you can dislike someone for being negative or cynical or hateful, or for actively causing unhappiness in others, or for moaning and complaining to get sympathy. But Stephen doesn't do that. He's very private about his deepest emotions. We only get to see them because POB shows us his innermost thoughts and his private journal. But being depressed is just part of Stephen's nature, the poor dear! (Like me, sigh.) And you don't dislike Dillon or Diana for being unhappy! As you say, it's Stephen's little twisted demons sneaking in, but everyone has their demons, and they rarely get to choose them.
Yes, he does make sarcastic barbs sometimes, though I've only seen him do it in retaliation. Aww, he's sarcastic with Sophie? I haven't seen that yet. Don't tell me about it though. But Jack and Diana can be just as unkind, and Stephen only gives as good as he gets, in terms of hurt. But he's usually very good about keeping an even temper even when provoked. Aww, I was just reading about him being sick in bed, and someone drunk and obnoxious was singing an anti-Catholic song to him very loudly, and it was annoying him more than usual (since he was still feverish). But he didn't say anything to the man, and thought "He probably doesn't know that I'm Catholic." I thought that was rather generous in him.
(Now if that had been Dillon in the sick bed...! Heehee.)
Yes, Diana and Canning did have a mutual agreement, which is why she's blameworthy too. But she did say to Stephen that it was almost unbearable, and she sometimes thought of breaking with Canning, but that would leave her penniless and friendless in India, her reputation ruined, and who would ever help her or want her then? Stephen wrote in his diary that he liked Canning, in spite of being jealous, and I think he was always polite and civil until he realized how unhappy Diana was, and how little Canning seemed to care.
But it's not true that he needs jealousy and rivalry for his love for Diana! It's true that I think she's rather an odd choice for his passionate love (since I'm more like Sophie myself, and I like Sophie, and she's sweeter and kinder, so naturally I want him to love HER instead). But if he had wanted a trophy to wrestle from someone, he could have tried for Sophie. She was beautiful, rich, and hard-to-get, plus she liked him very much, and he could have rivalled Jack. At times he even did look at her and think that she was absolutely lovely BUT, he would remind himself that she was Jack's, not his. (Jack should have had the same courtesy regarding Stephen and Diana! But unlike the carefully observant Stephen, Jack willfully chooses not to see what he doesn't want to see.)(Not that we must bash Jack to redeem Stephen or vice-versa. Just saying that Stephen is no better or worse than Jack. Their vices and flaws are just different.)
And Stephen didn't propose right away because he was certain she would refuse him! A penniless nonentity (and an ugly Catholic bastard). Sophie would have been contented to marry Jack and be poor in a cottage, even when Jack refused to answer her letters (awwww, jaaaack!!!) but Diana had specifically told Stephen "Love in a cottage be damned!"
Ah, ora penso che capisca. Ho cercato la frase. Stephen ti irrita, semplicemente? Capisco. Ci sono caratteri popolari che non mi piacciano. Come Heathcliff di "Wuthering Heights..."
Amo Scriven! Mi piace che Stephen lo alimenta con un cucchiaio. Povero Scriven! E tanto impaurito!
LOL si, Maturin m´irrita *molto* (anche Heathcliff, he he - e Rochester. Perchè gli caratteri più "romantici" ci sono anche sbagliati nel amore, se ne trovano piacere di fare soffrire così i sui amici? o.O He was less penniless than Diana, and it was only when Jack made her his mistress, though he was even poorer than Maturin - no castles in Spain or near-royal connections there! - that Maturin began to sneak up on her and spy on Jack. Also he was dishonest towards his best friend; Jack went after Diana quite openly, and when he finally realised Maturin might have a problem with that, the first thing he did was confront Maturin about her, laid his cards on the table frankly and asked him to do the same... and what did Maturin do? Refuse, deny, shy away like a coward - would have spared the foursome a lot of pain if he´d been as direct and said, "Jack, I know you´ve been fooling around with her and that you don´t love her anymore than she loves you, but I´m crazy for her and want to marry her", then Jack would have broken with Diana and everybody´d be happy. Why, even Sophie and Diana had an open fight about Jack to decide who would have him, remember? ;) But then I guess Maturin´s just the sneaky tormented mean alter ego of the sneaky tormented mean author who had a big skeleton in his own honesty/loyalty/love closet and he just dumped his unfinished business of guilt on the Doc :p
You´re so right that Sophie would have been better for Maturin than Diana in every way (he´s happiest when he´s with her, and tells her more and lets her get closer to him than he ever lets Jack). And Diana would be ideally matched with Jack. Diana has the commom sense to flee from Maturin for nearly ten years, at least, because she knows he´s bad medicine. It´s not just the money, but she doesn´t really see him as a soulmate, and he knows that too - yet insists on making himself even more miserable by pursuing her even after he fully realises he no longer loves her or desires her... that´s what I meant by my disliking of his being "unhappy", he´s hellbent on being as unhappy as he can, sorry that I couldn´t put it clearly. He´s such a "bottle´s half empty, and what´s there ain´t mine anywhere, and if it is then it´s sure poison, boohoo" type of fellow (very un-Spanish, in that!)
I don´t know how to explain it... but I have the feeling wherever he goes, he is the unwitting cause of unhappiness and dicord.
But Jack wasn't open about pursuing Diana. He would leave the cottage on some pretext, and then Stephen would arrive at Diana's house and see his own horse that Jack had taken to go visit her.
And yes, it would have spared the foursome a lot of pain if Stephen had been direct with Jack, but it would have spared them a lot of pain if JACK had been direct with Stephen, and with Sophie and Diana and himself. Jack obstinately refused to think rationally about the relationships, thinking that logic should only be involved in a mercenary marriage. He refused to order his thoughts about "Do I prefer Diana or Sophie?" because it was just too confusing, so he pursued both at once. And he likewise chose not to believe that Stephen was really interested in Diana. He would look at Stephen and think to himself, "No, he doesn't love Diana. I thought he did, but no, maybe not, probably not..." Stephen could have been direct and TOLD Jack, but Jack also could have asked Stephen.
And then Diana and Sophie wouldn't have had to fight over Jack!
And then when the sailors and even officers were making lewd comments about Jack and Diana, and Stephen mentioned it to Jack, Jack was the one who exploded with "any bastard can cowardly evade the issue by a flood of words." Jack was already getting angry and defensive when Stephen warned him not to go to Dover (because of creditors, because of naval gossip), even before Diana was even mentioned.
Sigh, as much as I love Jack, I couldn't quite forgive him for the way he acted with Diana, Sophie and Stephen. Poor Sophie!! If I had been Sophie, I think I would have finally convinced myself that Jack indeed didn't care about me, and I would have married the pleasant dull vicar. Or Stephen if he asked me.
But aieeee, quit giving me spoilers! I feeeeear them so terribly! I mean about Diana and Stephen. And stop being so meeeeean to Stephen! :O He is not a sneaky tormented mean man! If he were, why would people like Sophie, Jack, Bonden, Pullings, Sir Joseph, etc. all love him?
Heathcliff, on the other hand - nobody loves him except Cathy. I like Mr. Rochester, though. Heathcliff is just evil! But Stephen is nicer, much kinder, than Mr. Rochester. Rochester is rather manipulative.
Non puo scrivere in italiano oggi. Sono quasi morte, umm, nella testa. Nel cervello.
Il tuo favorito e Mowett? Non ho scrivato molto di Mowett. Ritornera' presto?
Si, Mowett ritornerà, ma non fera gran cosa ormai :(
I´m sorry about the spoilers! You have such insights about Jack and Maturin, I thought you had at least leafed through the later books and so knew a lot of what was going to happen *whacks self*
Umm yes, Jack wasn´t honest with Sophie *shuffles* But then, Sophie knew well Diana had ensnared Jack, and questioned her about it, so she did know she had a serious rival in her, and if she played ladylike innocent and ignorant she, too, was pretending very hard nothing was amiss, and that it was just Jack´s poverty and lack of prospects which kept him from courting her openly.
There´s so much hypocrisy in Post Captain, in every single character, it´s a fantastic book because each in the foursome is so ambiguous and realistically "fallible", so human you can sympathize with each of them (ok, well, almost) and their reasons for cheating on everybody else. Talk about a ménage à quatre...
But enough of this Stephen talk. Unless you particularly want to carry on? I don't think we will ever agree!
But apart from your being one of the rare species of Greater European Maturin Hater discovered in Madrid, I know very little about you! Do you work? Do you live with family, friends, alone? I'm 28, live alone with two cats, and I work as a paper conservator, una restauratrice dell'arte sulla carta. Hmm, I should just look at your LJ interests!
Do you like Ralph Fiennes movies? I ask because I love his movies, but I've also noticed that many of them are sad love stories. He often plays depressed intelligent men who are unhappy in love. I seem to be attracted to those characters! I want to comfort them! Ralph Fiennes actually played Heathcliff, and that made the character more bearable. ;D But I still dislike Heathcliff. RF just made me feel a little more sympathetic. But RF's characters aren't nearly as kind and content as Stephen.
What about Mr. Darcy in "Pride and Prejudice"? He's brooding. I don't LOVE him like many people do, but I like him. It took me a while to like him, though.
Oh noooooo! I didn't know Clonfert was going to die! *cries and hides* I'm only at The Mauritius Command. Well don't give me any details! Aww.
Mind if I voice my opinion on your reasons? Or have you defended your position a million times over already?
1. Fugly - well on the outside, I don't care (and I don't believe it either. I think Cecilia Williams says he's "almost handsome" at one point) and on the inside, I don't think he's fugly at all! But that's just opinion.
2. But he rescues Jack too! And Jack drives HIM up the wall sometimes! They both have an equal share of that, and they both have an equal love for each other too. Sometimes he's Jack's only friend and equal. Also, even though Jack has to rescue him, he's also instrumental in bringing lots of really GOOD things for Jack, like ships and chances at big prize money, and Sophia! (I hope you don't hate her?)
3. Aww, I don't think he's any of those things. He's not a swashbuckler like Jack, but someone unmanly and wimpish wouldn't take the huge risks that Stephen takes with being a spy or even just being a naval surgeon. An unmanly wimp would have quit immediately after the first voyage.
4. He didn't cause Dillon's death! Dillon died in battle.
And dear sweet Dil, that was just tremendously unlucky. Plenty of other children wearing bracelets were running around without being robbed and killed. Naturally he would feel responsible, sickened, devastated, ghastly. But it was just unlucky.
And Canning - it's understandable (though regrettable) that Stephen should have dueled with him after Canning struck him with a blow. It would have been irregular NOT to duel. I think Canning was specifically inviting a duel by striking him. But Stephen didn't intend to kill Canning. If Canning hadn't been aiming to kill STEPHEN, then Stephen wouldn't have been wounded so that he had to switch hands, and missed his aim. Unfortunate, but Canning had the more evil intention, and it caused his own death.
But are those the only characters you've fallen for? I did quite like Dillon, and LOVED Dil, was more or less indifferent to Canning (though sad when he died), and I do like Clonfert. But I also love Bonden, Scriven, Sophie, and I'm beginning to like Diana more. And I'm fond of Pullings. And of course I love Jack. Not nearly as much as I love Stephen though.
Should I tell you why I love him? Or have you argued that one a million times too?
You're from Spain? Ooh! Are you from the Català-speaking part, or elsewhere? Haha, hablo un poco de espanol, pero hablo tambien italiano y frances. A veces soy muy... confusa. He estudiado espanol en escuela, y me he olvidado casi todos. Phew! I write better, scrivo meglio, quando scrivo come Jack, usando tutti les langues, tutti ensemble, per la amusement, diverto, degli mi amici. ;D Mi piacebbere, me gusta, vous prendere per une amie. D'accord?
A glass of Maderia with you would please me no end. Visibilium et invisibilium!
Pardon my strangeness. I'm not always this strange. It's been a very long week.
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Ohhh, I love so many characters... Sir Joseph, Killick, Bonden, Dr Ramis, the dear Rose-Pod, Diana, Mrs Broad (from The Grapes), and especially Mowett *blushes and hides* but above all I´m smitten with Jack *g*
Please do share why you love Maturin - so many people do but then most realize it´s the dandyish and totally not canon Movie!Maturin they fell for. As I didn´t take the movie one seriously, and seriously detest the book version of the Doctor, I´d very much like to know what makes him lovable, and admirable, for you :)
Brava, te entiendo perfectamente y lo escribes bien, enhorabuena! Soy de Madrid, ma anche parlo l´italiano et aussi je me débrouille en français s´y on a besoin, et me encantaría añadirte como amiga, totallement d´accord!
Strange is a very relative concept, he he.
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I expect Dillon would be similarly unhappy in his situation if Stephen had been absent. He'd have a well-meaning but tactless captain who claimed to hate Irish and catholics, and there'd be no one to tell him, "Jack's really not so bad, and he respects you a lot..." As for seeking death in battle - he was swashbuckling with the best of them, and Stephen said he looked joyously happy - "The light on his face!" To say he was seeking death in the battle is a romantic notion, and I don't believe it. If he had wanted to die, he wouldn't have fought with such vigour and joy. If anything, Stephen alleviated much of Dillon's despair by offering friendship, sympathy, and a non-judgmental listening ear.
And Canning was the one who offered the gravest insult, by striking Stephen. And even if Stephen did want to kill him, (of which I'm not convinced), he didn't intend to kill him. Canning did intend to kill Stephen though. Hmph, and if Canning had really loved Diana, I don't think he would have exposed her to such scandal. Of course, she's equally to blame, but still - he wanted to keep his wife who was joining him in India, and he wanted to keep Diana for himself on the side, keeping her in limbo, neither married nor available, hardly able to leave the house without society scowling at her. She had to share Canning with his wife, but he got to have both women all to himself. Hmph. (Not that that's unusual - but Stephen wouldn't have done anything to besmirch the reputation of a lady he loved.) It was degrading, which is why she was crying on Stephen's shoulder.
I like Canning, really. And so did Stephen. And Diana is highly to blame, but I sympathize with her (though it took me a while). I guess Canning made her an offer she couldn't refuse, and she accepted. But, if he'd been a more honorable man, he wouldn't have tempted her into such a painful situation.
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I'm predisposed to like doctors. I love anatomy, and medicine, and the whole compassionate notion of preserving life and healing.
I love birds, animals, fish, plants, rocks, geography, natural history, all that naturalist stuff! And I love how enthusiastic and happy Stephen is when he finds a new specimen. It's so endearing - and so cute!
I love his ability to read people's character and understand their emotions. He's an understanding listener, and he also understands subtle signs that betray people's feelings even when they don't say anything. Plus he's compassionate and fair. He's often reserved and aloof, but he's reserved in judgment as well. He isn't naive (which I often am, being too quick to see the good in everyone), but he's good about looking at the person's whole character, not just focusing on their flaws (even if the person is rather foolish and pathetic). He's sensitive. And he usually instinctively knows what to do with other people's emotions.
I guess I appreciate and sympathise with his emotions all around. I'm usually quite good at reading people's minds and cradling their more fragile emotions - but then I'm often secretly an emotional mess inside, like Stephen. Very introspective. I used to write looong secret journal entries like he does, but now I'm better about talking to my friends about such things instead (which, I think, comes more naturally to females than to males). But I often suffer from loneliness, depression, self-loathing and near-despair like he does, so I sympathise and feel SUCH an affectionate compassion for him, the poor dear. (And I wish for laudanum.)
The emotional connection is the greatest attraction for me. I liked him in the movie when I had no other reference (though I was disappointed that they made the beautiful Paul Bettany look so ugly, haha), and I had the most stirring affectionate compassion when he was wounded (my maternal or nursing instinct, I suppose - I do love feeling compassionate!) and I was delighted and envious of his joy at all the Galapagos creatures. But I didn't really fall in love until I read the book, when I was able to see his emotional thought processes. Two of my favorite scenes are when he wakes up on the hillside with tears in his eyes after a dream about his lost love, and he's so upset to find a grease stain from the meat in his pocket (even though he knows it's irrational to be so upset), and he's wondering if there really is a possibility of becoming a naval surgeon (and did Jack really mean it, or was he just being over-exuberent and friendly after too much wine?). And then later, he's heading for the Sophie to meet Jack, and he sees her sailing away - dismay! He had been suppressing his emotions so vigilantly, guarding against letting his hopes rise too high, arguing with himself and warning himself that it might be too good to be true - but now, seeing the lovely ship with her sails departing, he realized that his hopes had risen in spite of his best efforts, and he had already had so many disappointments, and didn't know how he would be able to bear another. GAH! The poor dear! I understood exactly, and I sympathised dreadfully, poor darling, and I loved him!!
(Haha, I'm in such an emotional state myself that writing about that passage just now drove me to bite my nails, something I NEVER do. Oh the angst!)
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Oh, I'm usually attracted to highly intelligent over-educated men. ;D Especially if they're enthusiastic like he is. Also, I think he's quite amusing with his snarky comments. And I love his sweet affection for Jack, and for Sophie (who also reminds me of myself), and for Bonden, and Sir Joseph, and Pullings... And I adore his friendship with Dil, neither condescending nor aloof - not many men can be such equal companions with a young girl. And equality is so noble in Stephen, and pure. Even just learning the language and adapting to local customs wherever he goes - I love that. Oooh, I love languages too! And music.
I would love to just sit and talk to Stephen for days - talk about birds, music, travel, language, people, medicine, history... Oh! And I could color his drawings for him, since he feels that he lacks the skill.
Hmph, I'm sure Diana could never appreciate all those things the way I do!!! *pouts*
The end!
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My, what a case you´ve set up for understanding and liking Maturin - fans of him are usually quite impassioned about it, but seldom find so many valid grounds to substantiate it :) I *still* can´t stand the man (guess it´s his bitterness and self-hatred, his complex of inferiority with his "how sorry and defensive I feel for myself for my poverty and bastardy and ugliness, blah blah" whereas Jack is far healthier and devil-may-care about that or his own corpulence and disfiguring scars; it´s also those frequent sarcastic barbs at the casualties of his cold turkey fits - even those people he likes best, like Jack, Sophie and Diana), but you´ve raised several excellent points of behaviour that redeem him (his deep respect for Dil as a worthy human being - so true!). His emotions usually are found in the negative range, and are strongest when he´s most angered or suffering - not attractive! And even when he´s (infrequently) happy, it´s either despite himself (though there´s nothing in Catholicism about happiness being sinful) or else it´s tinted with that ever-present, underlying bitterness. There´s no innocence and no undiluted, spontaneous joy de vivre in him; his little twisted demons sneak him and spoil even the light moments (for instance when he´s singing "cleanse me, etc" in the chains in HMSS and letting the sea spray over him - the verses immediately after that (which he doesn´t get to sing, but it gave me chills anyway) say, "for in sin I was conceived". Always bittersweet, too knowing, freighted with hidden guilt or remorse. When Jack´s happy, it´s like the whole ship takes off the water :D ).
I still think Maturin calculated exactly how to hurt Canning worst - he *was* as good as making love to Canning´s mistress under Canning´s own roof and anyway, Canning´s relationship with Diana was a mutually consented arrangement between adults and none of Maturin´s business (if he so loved Diana, why didn´t he propose in PC already? But no, someone *else* has to own her for him to take a renewed interest in her: first Jack, then Canning, then someone else I´m not giving away because you haven´t read that far along yet ;) Jealousy and rivalry are his prime amorous motivators, not selfless love for Diana´s own sake, she´s just some trophy to wrestle from the alpha male du jour, and that´s another trait I dislike in Maturin).
Mi piace anche molto parlare di questi caratteri, nonché vorrebbe amazzare il Dottore perchè mi rompe le scatole :p
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Yes, he does make sarcastic barbs sometimes, though I've only seen him do it in retaliation. Aww, he's sarcastic with Sophie? I haven't seen that yet. Don't tell me about it though. But Jack and Diana can be just as unkind, and Stephen only gives as good as he gets, in terms of hurt. But he's usually very good about keeping an even temper even when provoked. Aww, I was just reading about him being sick in bed, and someone drunk and obnoxious was singing an anti-Catholic song to him very loudly, and it was annoying him more than usual (since he was still feverish). But he didn't say anything to the man, and thought "He probably doesn't know that I'm Catholic." I thought that was rather generous in him.
(Now if that had been Dillon in the sick bed...! Heehee.)
Yes, Diana and Canning did have a mutual agreement, which is why she's blameworthy too. But she did say to Stephen that it was almost unbearable, and she sometimes thought of breaking with Canning, but that would leave her penniless and friendless in India, her reputation ruined, and who would ever help her or want her then? Stephen wrote in his diary that he liked Canning, in spite of being jealous, and I think he was always polite and civil until he realized how unhappy Diana was, and how little Canning seemed to care.
But it's not true that he needs jealousy and rivalry for his love for Diana! It's true that I think she's rather an odd choice for his passionate love (since I'm more like Sophie myself, and I like Sophie, and she's sweeter and kinder, so naturally I want him to love HER instead). But if he had wanted a trophy to wrestle from someone, he could have tried for Sophie. She was beautiful, rich, and hard-to-get, plus she liked him very much, and he could have rivalled Jack. At times he even did look at her and think that she was absolutely lovely BUT, he would remind himself that she was Jack's, not his. (Jack should have had the same courtesy regarding Stephen and Diana! But unlike the carefully observant Stephen, Jack willfully chooses not to see what he doesn't want to see.)(Not that we must bash Jack to redeem Stephen or vice-versa. Just saying that Stephen is no better or worse than Jack. Their vices and flaws are just different.)
And Stephen didn't propose right away because he was certain she would refuse him! A penniless nonentity (and an ugly Catholic bastard). Sophie would have been contented to marry Jack and be poor in a cottage, even when Jack refused to answer her letters (awwww, jaaaack!!!) but Diana had specifically told Stephen "Love in a cottage be damned!"
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Amo Scriven! Mi piace che Stephen lo alimenta con un cucchiaio. Povero Scriven! E tanto impaurito!
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You´re so right that Sophie would have been better for Maturin than Diana in every way (he´s happiest when he´s with her, and tells her more and lets her get closer to him than he ever lets Jack). And Diana would be ideally matched with Jack. Diana has the commom sense to flee from Maturin for nearly ten years, at least, because she knows he´s bad medicine. It´s not just the money, but she doesn´t really see him as a soulmate, and he knows that too - yet insists on making himself even more miserable by pursuing her even after he fully realises he no longer loves her or desires her... that´s what I meant by my disliking of his being "unhappy", he´s hellbent on being as unhappy as he can, sorry that I couldn´t put it clearly. He´s such a "bottle´s half empty, and what´s there ain´t mine anywhere, and if it is then it´s sure poison, boohoo" type of fellow (very un-Spanish, in that!)
I don´t know how to explain it... but I have the feeling wherever he goes, he is the unwitting cause of unhappiness and dicord.
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And yes, it would have spared the foursome a lot of pain if Stephen had been direct with Jack, but it would have spared them a lot of pain if JACK had been direct with Stephen, and with Sophie and Diana and himself. Jack obstinately refused to think rationally about the relationships, thinking that logic should only be involved in a mercenary marriage. He refused to order his thoughts about "Do I prefer Diana or Sophie?" because it was just too confusing, so he pursued both at once. And he likewise chose not to believe that Stephen was really interested in Diana. He would look at Stephen and think to himself, "No, he doesn't love Diana. I thought he did, but no, maybe not, probably not..." Stephen could have been direct and TOLD Jack, but Jack also could have asked Stephen.
And then Diana and Sophie wouldn't have had to fight over Jack!
And then when the sailors and even officers were making lewd comments about Jack and Diana, and Stephen mentioned it to Jack, Jack was the one who exploded with "any bastard can cowardly evade the issue by a flood of words." Jack was already getting angry and defensive when Stephen warned him not to go to Dover (because of creditors, because of naval gossip), even before Diana was even mentioned.
Sigh, as much as I love Jack, I couldn't quite forgive him for the way he acted with Diana, Sophie and Stephen. Poor Sophie!! If I had been Sophie, I think I would have finally convinced myself that Jack indeed didn't care about me, and I would have married the pleasant dull vicar. Or Stephen if he asked me.
But aieeee, quit giving me spoilers! I feeeeear them so terribly! I mean about Diana and Stephen. And stop being so meeeeean to Stephen! :O He is not a sneaky tormented mean man! If he were, why would people like Sophie, Jack, Bonden, Pullings, Sir Joseph, etc. all love him?
Heathcliff, on the other hand - nobody loves him except Cathy. I like Mr. Rochester, though. Heathcliff is just evil! But Stephen is nicer, much kinder, than Mr. Rochester. Rochester is rather manipulative.
Non puo scrivere in italiano oggi. Sono quasi morte, umm, nella testa. Nel cervello.
Il tuo favorito e Mowett? Non ho scrivato molto di Mowett. Ritornera' presto?
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I´m sorry about the spoilers! You have such insights about Jack and Maturin, I thought you had at least leafed through the later books and so knew a lot of what was going to happen *whacks self*
Umm yes, Jack wasn´t honest with Sophie *shuffles* But then, Sophie knew well Diana had ensnared Jack, and questioned her about it, so she did know she had a serious rival in her, and if she played ladylike innocent and ignorant she, too, was pretending very hard nothing was amiss, and that it was just Jack´s poverty and lack of prospects which kept him from courting her openly.
There´s so much hypocrisy in Post Captain, in every single character, it´s a fantastic book because each in the foursome is so ambiguous and realistically "fallible", so human you can sympathize with each of them (ok, well, almost) and their reasons for cheating on everybody else. Talk about a ménage à quatre...
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But apart from your being one of the rare species of Greater European Maturin Hater discovered in Madrid, I know very little about you! Do you work? Do you live with family, friends, alone? I'm 28, live alone with two cats, and I work as a paper conservator, una restauratrice dell'arte sulla carta. Hmm, I should just look at your LJ interests!
Do you like Ralph Fiennes movies? I ask because I love his movies, but I've also noticed that many of them are sad love stories. He often plays depressed intelligent men who are unhappy in love. I seem to be attracted to those characters! I want to comfort them! Ralph Fiennes actually played Heathcliff, and that made the character more bearable. ;D But I still dislike Heathcliff. RF just made me feel a little more sympathetic. But RF's characters aren't nearly as kind and content as Stephen.
What about Mr. Darcy in "Pride and Prejudice"? He's brooding. I don't LOVE him like many people do, but I like him. It took me a while to like him, though.
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