Needless to say, I'm with Clark on this one, as I was then, and as I am now too. Davis was a killer. Known killer. Multiple murderer whose destiny included killing Clark. Now, as shady as the Kandorians are, and they are, I fully see that, and their potential for mass-murderness too, but they still haven't done anything yet IMO that warrants sending them as humans no less to a place such as the PZ.
I don't know. I'm actually with Chloe on this one. Partly because I KNOW the writers are doing this to make Clark look stupid and that in the end, it's DEFINITELY going to come back and bite him in the ass. Secondly, they're not even the real versions of themselves. They're clones who were made AGAINST Jor-El's wishes, and I don't really consider it wrong for them to be sent to the PZ. They've ALREADY done enough stuff to be considered problematic (including killing quite a few humans), and Clark KNOWS the Zod of the future is a crazy megalomaniac. Why not just stop it now?
The Chlark scenes didn't really work for me in this one either, I'm afraid and I absolutely cringed at Chloe' "sometimes protecting you means having to protect you from yourself." I can really, really live without hearing this from her again.
Agreed. And it irks me more because it doesn't even make sense half the times she uses it. It feels like the writers have decided for that to be her signature line, and it really bugs.
Firstly, I liked that the Zod/Alia scene so effectively highlighted the almost uniquely righteous yet brutal way of functioning for these people - all for "justice." Alia kills Jor-El and then Zod kills Alia. Secondly, I thought the funeral scene was stunningly filmed and the music score complimented the proceedings very well.
I had my problems with this. You kill someone for killing a fellow Kandorian (okay, fine), and then you give them a grand funeral? What the hell? Doesn't it contradict the reason for offing that person in the first place?
I love that even though he may seem old fashioned, he was real quick to miss the 'old Lois' and was genuinely worried about her career. I also liked how great it was of him to let Lois call the shots in that final scene of theirs. That was incredibly sweet, especially given that he had seen Lois' meltdown earlier where some of her genuine insecurities came out to play.
Agreed, on both counts.
I think the barn scene was in any case an important one for them, because when Clark reaffirms his promise to Lois here - it almost dawns on him as a sort of realization or revelation too. Subtly played by TW, but nicely done.
Agreed, again. I really enjoyed the confirmation to his first statement, because it proves he didn't just say it to calm her down. I thought that was great.
I enjoyed the Ma Kent, Lucy and The General' mentions, but bar none, my favorite part of the mindwhammy plot was Emil. It was absolutely hilarious watching him in non-plussed-laidback guy mode. "Whatevs." Heh!
Favourite part of the episode! We need to see this side of Emil more often!
That Alia killed Jor-El - is that why she apologizes to Clark in 'Savior?' But then, how the hell does that make any sense at all, timeline wise?
I had a TON of questions about Alia after "Pandora" which won't ever be answered now that she's dead. Joy!
//I don't know. I'm actually with Chloe on this one. Partly because I KNOW the writers are doing this to make Clark look stupid and that in the end, it's DEFINITELY going to come back and bite him in the ass. Secondly, they're not even the real versions of themselves. They're clones who were made AGAINST Jor-El's wishes, and I don't really consider it wrong for them to be sent to the PZ. They've ALREADY done enough stuff to be considered problematic (including killing quite a few humans), and Clark KNOWS the Zod of the future is a crazy megalomaniac. Why not just stop it now?//
Oh, I'm fully expecting things to backfire for Clark, in some way or the other. That's just the writers modus operandi. However, if I were to separate myself from that and look at the equation - I still think it boils down to a comparitive scale of relative evil. Does that make sense? Is it right? Probably not, but all I know is I viewed Davis straight out as a mass murderer whose very destiny included becoming a beast and annihilating Clark. Whereas, with the Kandorians I can even correlate this with Zod, but when it comes to the rest of them? They're not an enmasse murderous collective. Individuals within them, certainly. But as an entire group, I'm not sure. Or, at the very least, we don't have full info on all of them. Yet. And even beyond all of this, what bugged me the most was Chloe' double standards in this. I can see what you're saying that she might have learnt her lesson but I just got unpleasant flashbacks to her relationship with Davis all over again, which, I still maintain was one of heavy emotional dependency and definite romantic undertones, no matter what the official party line Chloe gave.
//and then you give them a grand funeral? What the hell? Doesn't it contradict the reason for offing that person in the first place?//
I could understand this. The Kryptonians/Kandorians are all about their own, very specific, unique code. And so Alia kills, because she feels she has to, but still regrets the act of killing a fellow Kryptonian and therefore demands her life be taken as compensation/retribution/peace for her soul, whichever way you want to look at it. And thus, while Zod complies, she was still a trusted soldier. I saw it as a way for them to honor that rather than punish her for her sin. Which, they probably feel she's already atoned for in giving up her life.
//I had a TON of questions about Alia after "Pandora" which won't ever be answered now that she's dead. Joy!//
Heh, I know. I was just saying to Bri that this is why the bastids probably offed her in the first place - so they wouldn't have to answer any questions.
Re: Part 2starry_dawnFebruary 21 2010, 10:39:13 UTC
I still think it boils down to a comparitive scale of relative evil. Does that make sense? Is it right? Probably not, but all I know is I viewed Davis straight out as a mass murderer whose very destiny included becoming a beast and annihilating Clark. Whereas, with the Kandorians I can even correlate this with Zod, but when it comes to the rest of them? They're not an enmasse murderous collective. Individuals within them, certainly. But as an entire group, I'm not sure.
Okay, I get this. But I think it still doesn't justify Clark not considering the option at all, especially now that he knows Zod is upto no good. I'm not saying he should bump everyone off to the PZ, just Zod. I'm positive, though, that we'll spend the remainder of the season watching Clark try and make peace somehow, with obviously disastrous results, and I'm not looking forward to that.
I can see what you're saying that she might have learnt her lesson but I just got unpleasant flashbacks to her relationship with Davis all over again, which, I still maintain was one of heavy emotional dependency and definite romantic undertones, no matter what the official party line Chloe gave.
That's precisely why I think it's not so much about double standards as Chloe seeing things more clearly in this case. I think she was too emotionally involved in Davis's situation to even consider the PZ as a viable option. Now that she knows how that ended, combined with the fact that she has a more third-person perspective on this situation, I don't find it hard to believe that she would suggest the PZ as a possible course of action. I haven't defended Chloe's actions a lot this year, but I do think that in this case, it wasn't hypocritical of her to suggest sending the Kandorians to the PZ. What bugged me more was actually Clark's reaction, which I found abrasive and OOC. I have enough problems with Chloe acting like a bitch with Clark. I don't need to see Clark reciprocating as well. I expect more from him.
saw it as a way for them to honor that rather than punish her for her sin. Which, they probably feel she's already atoned for in giving up her life.
Yeah, shardsofblu explained this to me as well, and it makes sense now. I didn't think of it that way. :)
I was just saying to Bri that this is why the bastids probably offed her in the first place - so they wouldn't have to answer any questions.
After all the credit we've given the writers for their work this season, this is what we get in return. *sigh*
//That's precisely why I think it's not so much about double standards as Chloe seeing things more clearly in this case. I think she was too emotionally involved in Davis's situation to even consider the PZ as a viable option. Now that she knows how that ended, combined with the fact that she has a more third-person perspective on this situation, I don't find it hard to believe that she would suggest the PZ as a possible course of action.//
And I'd agree with you on this, if I felt that Chloe recognized this. As in, if she recognized that, "look, yes, I was into Davis, I had my judgement blinded by that, but it's a mistake I won't make again." Except that this is a stance Chloe has not, to this day, accepted. Right up until 'Doomsday', we see her sticking to her justification that she was doing it all for Clark, and only loved Jimmy, and felt nothing in 'that' way for Davis. Which, while yes, some of us as an audience get is BS, it's not an admission that has ever come from Chloe herself. And so in that sense, it felt like a double standard to me. Because if she was impartial then and impartial now and ::only:: coming at it with Clark as her main objective, then her principles either a)shouldn't so easily be awayed or b)she should concede she was wrong then, and has since seen the error of her previous call. Instead, we get none of this and just Chloe very adamantly conveying across her view wrt PZ, as if thats been her line of thinking all along. That's what smacks of double standards and flip flopping, to me.
//What bugged me more was actually Clark's reaction, which I found abrasive and OOC. I have enough problems with Chloe acting like a bitch with Clark. I don't need to see Clark reciprocating as well. I expect more from him.//
I agree with you on this though. Clark was abrasive. Like I mentioned in my review, the Chlark just did not work for me in this one. Neither were at their best with each other, and in fact brought out less than pleasant facets of each others personalities.
I'm frustrated by this because I feel like there's such a continuance of the lack of addressing this from the writers. They're consistently showing us that Chlark are at their most dysfunctional, but yet there are no signs whatsoever to bring that along to any sort of resolution.
Re: Part 2starry_dawnFebruary 21 2010, 13:34:48 UTC
Hmm, okay. I get what you're saying. I guess I've just been working under the assumption that Chloe realizes the mistake she made, even if she hasn't articulated it. Which, you're right, is pure fanwanking until we're told as much. I guess this is the only way I've been able to live with the entire Doomsday plot, so I've imbibed the wank completely, so much so that it sometimes doesn't occur to me that the show might not be running along those exact same lines. Sorry!
Like I mentioned in my review, the Chlark just did not work for me in this one. Neither were at their best with each other, and in fact brought out less than pleasant facets of each others personalities.
I think it was done solely for plot-furthering purposes - to get Clark to tell Chloe to protect his back, and for her to go off on Lois because of this - both of which were completely unnecessary except for the resolution it kinda sorta brought Clois in the end.
I'm frustrated by this because I feel like there's such a continuance of the lack of addressing this from the writers. They're consistently showing us that Chlark are at their most dysfunctional, but yet there are no signs whatsoever to bring that along to any sort of resolution.
ITA. Not only are we being denied a resolution, the argument itself isn't being articulated properly. Sometimes I really wonder what the hell this cold war is about. Why is Chloe so angry? Why is Clark annoyed? We got a few lines in the first episode, but while things have gotten pretty bad since then, we haven't really had either character talk about it beyond the usual "I have to save him from himself" and "You would never step up and do what needs to be done" garbage. Hell, if they're going to introduce discord into the only relationship that has had some semblance of functionality all these years (and I'm in no way against this notion), shouldn't we at least get a clearer picture of it?
//ITA. Not only are we being denied a resolution, the argument itself isn't being articulated properly. Sometimes I really wonder what the hell this cold war is about. Why is Chloe so angry? Why is Clark annoyed? We got a few lines in the first episode, but while things have gotten pretty bad since then, we haven't really had either character talk about it beyond the usual "I have to save him from himself" and "You would never step up and do what needs to be done" garbage. Hell, if they're going to introduce discord into the only relationship that has had some semblance of functionality all these years (and I'm in no way against this notion), shouldn't we at least get a clearer picture of it?//
I can actually see the reasons for the discord. There's a lot in S8 that has built up, bit by bit to where these two are now (and that'd be a whole other post now discussing that, heh) so that's not what I'm contesting, personally. My inherent problem with this remains that there seems to be no sign of any resolution on the horizon. And by resolution, yes, I do mean for these two to eventually talk it all out and get back to a better place with each other. Because while they may never regain the exact kind of closeness they once had, and while I may have my issues with Chloe, Chlark have been friends for ::way too long:: for things to continue like this. If it takes an ep of them really hashing out their differences, much like in RL sometimes this can lead to a place of better understanding and from that, a new place of friendship and closeness. May not be the same in type as before but at least it'll come with some mutual respect and care now, rather than taking each other for granted. My problem is that I don't know if the writers recognize the importance of this. Because it'll be a damn shame and dusservice to both characters if they don't.
Needless to say, I'm with Clark on this one, as I was then, and as I am now too. Davis was a killer. Known killer. Multiple murderer whose destiny included killing Clark. Now, as shady as the Kandorians are, and they are, I fully see that, and their potential for mass-murderness too, but they still haven't done anything yet IMO that warrants sending them as humans no less to a place such as the PZ.
I don't know. I'm actually with Chloe on this one. Partly because I KNOW the writers are doing this to make Clark look stupid and that in the end, it's DEFINITELY going to come back and bite him in the ass. Secondly, they're not even the real versions of themselves. They're clones who were made AGAINST Jor-El's wishes, and I don't really consider it wrong for them to be sent to the PZ. They've ALREADY done enough stuff to be considered problematic (including killing quite a few humans), and Clark KNOWS the Zod of the future is a crazy megalomaniac. Why not just stop it now?
The Chlark scenes didn't really work for me in this one either, I'm afraid and I absolutely cringed at Chloe' "sometimes protecting you means having to protect you from yourself." I can really, really live without hearing this from her again.
Agreed. And it irks me more because it doesn't even make sense half the times she uses it. It feels like the writers have decided for that to be her signature line, and it really bugs.
Firstly, I liked that the Zod/Alia scene so effectively highlighted the almost uniquely righteous yet brutal way of functioning for these people - all for "justice." Alia kills Jor-El and then Zod kills Alia. Secondly, I thought the funeral scene was stunningly filmed and the music score complimented the proceedings very well.
I had my problems with this. You kill someone for killing a fellow Kandorian (okay, fine), and then you give them a grand funeral? What the hell? Doesn't it contradict the reason for offing that person in the first place?
I love that even though he may seem old fashioned, he was real quick to miss the 'old Lois' and was genuinely worried about her career. I also liked how great it was of him to let Lois call the shots in that final scene of theirs. That was incredibly sweet, especially given that he had seen Lois' meltdown earlier where some of her genuine insecurities came out to play.
Agreed, on both counts.
I think the barn scene was in any case an important one for them, because when Clark reaffirms his promise to Lois here - it almost dawns on him as a sort of realization or revelation too. Subtly played by TW, but nicely done.
Agreed, again. I really enjoyed the confirmation to his first statement, because it proves he didn't just say it to calm her down. I thought that was great.
I enjoyed the Ma Kent, Lucy and The General' mentions, but bar none, my favorite part of the mindwhammy plot was Emil. It was absolutely hilarious watching him in non-plussed-laidback guy mode. "Whatevs." Heh!
Favourite part of the episode! We need to see this side of Emil more often!
That Alia killed Jor-El - is that why she apologizes to Clark in 'Savior?' But then, how the hell does that make any sense at all, timeline wise?
I had a TON of questions about Alia after "Pandora" which won't ever be answered now that she's dead. Joy!
Reply
Oh, I'm fully expecting things to backfire for Clark, in some way or the other. That's just the writers modus operandi. However, if I were to separate myself from that and look at the equation - I still think it boils down to a comparitive scale of relative evil. Does that make sense? Is it right? Probably not, but all I know is I viewed Davis straight out as a mass murderer whose very destiny included becoming a beast and annihilating Clark. Whereas, with the Kandorians I can even correlate this with Zod, but when it comes to the rest of them? They're not an enmasse murderous collective. Individuals within them, certainly. But as an entire group, I'm not sure. Or, at the very least, we don't have full info on all of them. Yet. And even beyond all of this, what bugged me the most was Chloe' double standards in this. I can see what you're saying that she might have learnt her lesson but I just got unpleasant flashbacks to her relationship with Davis all over again, which, I still maintain was one of heavy emotional dependency and definite romantic undertones, no matter what the official party line Chloe gave.
//and then you give them a grand funeral? What the hell? Doesn't it contradict the reason for offing that person in the first place?//
I could understand this. The Kryptonians/Kandorians are all about their own, very specific, unique code. And so Alia kills, because she feels she has to, but still regrets the act of killing a fellow Kryptonian and therefore demands her life be taken as compensation/retribution/peace for her soul, whichever way you want to look at it. And thus, while Zod complies, she was still a trusted soldier. I saw it as a way for them to honor that rather than punish her for her sin. Which, they probably feel she's already atoned for in giving up her life.
//I had a TON of questions about Alia after "Pandora" which won't ever be answered now that she's dead. Joy!//
Heh, I know. I was just saying to Bri that this is why the bastids probably offed her in the first place - so they wouldn't have to answer any questions.
Reply
Okay, I get this. But I think it still doesn't justify Clark not considering the option at all, especially now that he knows Zod is upto no good. I'm not saying he should bump everyone off to the PZ, just Zod. I'm positive, though, that we'll spend the remainder of the season watching Clark try and make peace somehow, with obviously disastrous results, and I'm not looking forward to that.
I can see what you're saying that she might have learnt her lesson but I just got unpleasant flashbacks to her relationship with Davis all over again, which, I still maintain was one of heavy emotional dependency and definite romantic undertones, no matter what the official party line Chloe gave.
That's precisely why I think it's not so much about double standards as Chloe seeing things more clearly in this case. I think she was too emotionally involved in Davis's situation to even consider the PZ as a viable option. Now that she knows how that ended, combined with the fact that she has a more third-person perspective on this situation, I don't find it hard to believe that she would suggest the PZ as a possible course of action. I haven't defended Chloe's actions a lot this year, but I do think that in this case, it wasn't hypocritical of her to suggest sending the Kandorians to the PZ. What bugged me more was actually Clark's reaction, which I found abrasive and OOC. I have enough problems with Chloe acting like a bitch with Clark. I don't need to see Clark reciprocating as well. I expect more from him.
saw it as a way for them to honor that rather than punish her for her sin. Which, they probably feel she's already atoned for in giving up her life.
Yeah, shardsofblu explained this to me as well, and it makes sense now. I didn't think of it that way. :)
I was just saying to Bri that this is why the bastids probably offed her in the first place - so they wouldn't have to answer any questions.
After all the credit we've given the writers for their work this season, this is what we get in return. *sigh*
Reply
And I'd agree with you on this, if I felt that Chloe recognized this. As in, if she recognized that, "look, yes, I was into Davis, I had my judgement blinded by that, but it's a mistake I won't make again." Except that this is a stance Chloe has not, to this day, accepted. Right up until 'Doomsday', we see her sticking to her justification that she was doing it all for Clark, and only loved Jimmy, and felt nothing in 'that' way for Davis. Which, while yes, some of us as an audience get is BS, it's not an admission that has ever come from Chloe herself. And so in that sense, it felt like a double standard to me. Because if she was impartial then and impartial now and ::only:: coming at it with Clark as her main objective, then her principles either a)shouldn't so easily be awayed or b)she should concede she was wrong then, and has since seen the error of her previous call. Instead, we get none of this and just Chloe very adamantly conveying across her view wrt PZ, as if thats been her line of thinking all along. That's what smacks of double standards and flip flopping, to me.
//What bugged me more was actually Clark's reaction, which I found abrasive and OOC. I have enough problems with Chloe acting like a bitch with Clark. I don't need to see Clark reciprocating as well. I expect more from him.//
I agree with you on this though. Clark was abrasive. Like I mentioned in my review, the Chlark just did not work for me in this one. Neither were at their best with each other, and in fact brought out less than pleasant facets of each others personalities.
I'm frustrated by this because I feel like there's such a continuance of the lack of addressing this from the writers. They're consistently showing us that Chlark are at their most dysfunctional, but yet there are no signs whatsoever to bring that along to any sort of resolution.
Reply
Like I mentioned in my review, the Chlark just did not work for me in this one. Neither were at their best with each other, and in fact brought out less than pleasant facets of each others personalities.
I think it was done solely for plot-furthering purposes - to get Clark to tell Chloe to protect his back, and for her to go off on Lois because of this - both of which were completely unnecessary except for the resolution it kinda sorta brought Clois in the end.
I'm frustrated by this because I feel like there's such a continuance of the lack of addressing this from the writers. They're consistently showing us that Chlark are at their most dysfunctional, but yet there are no signs whatsoever to bring that along to any sort of resolution.
ITA. Not only are we being denied a resolution, the argument itself isn't being articulated properly. Sometimes I really wonder what the hell this cold war is about. Why is Chloe so angry? Why is Clark annoyed? We got a few lines in the first episode, but while things have gotten pretty bad since then, we haven't really had either character talk about it beyond the usual "I have to save him from himself" and "You would never step up and do what needs to be done" garbage. Hell, if they're going to introduce discord into the only relationship that has had some semblance of functionality all these years (and I'm in no way against this notion), shouldn't we at least get a clearer picture of it?
Reply
I can actually see the reasons for the discord. There's a lot in S8 that has built up, bit by bit to where these two are now (and that'd be a whole other post now discussing that, heh) so that's not what I'm contesting, personally. My inherent problem with this remains that there seems to be no sign of any resolution on the horizon. And by resolution, yes, I do mean for these two to eventually talk it all out and get back to a better place with each other. Because while they may never regain the exact kind of closeness they once had, and while I may have my issues with Chloe, Chlark have been friends for ::way too long:: for things to continue like this. If it takes an ep of them really hashing out their differences, much like in RL sometimes this can lead to a place of better understanding and from that, a new place of friendship and closeness. May not be the same in type as before but at least it'll come with some mutual respect and care now, rather than taking each other for granted. My problem is that I don't know if the writers recognize the importance of this. Because it'll be a damn shame and dusservice to both characters if they don't.
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