I voted NO on prop 8, and I voted for McCain. I am getting really tired of comments like, "While the 'red states' are busy 'hunting terrorists'..." I'd KILL to throw the Religious Reich out of the Republican party, but that will NEVER happen if we keep hurling childish insults at each other.
Leave Patrick Henry out of it. This is a religion-dictating-jurisprudence problem, and Patrick Henry was a big ol' Bible Thumping Fire and Brimstone PURITAN just like the rest of our founding fathers. And really, shouldn't we save those kind of quotes for ... special times?
The BLUEST state in the nation who voted for Obama in droves... voted to repeal gay marriage. Now, either they were confused (which may be the case, it was poorly worded) or the voice of the people have spoken, and y'all who were upset that the Supreme Court 'chose our president' are looking forward to having them address the issue of marriage?
reminder: I voted AGAINST prop 8, I see no problem with gay marriage, I think it will be beneficial to the country as a whole and California in specific can make use of the extra money from marriage licenses and whatnot. I just want everyone to keep their goddamn religion out of my politics. :P
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
Listen, Ill be the first admit that the term "Red States" and "Blue States" is horrifically divisive. And only relevant as to the previous presidential election. The fact of the matter is, if the republican party looked anything like it SHOULD I would be about as right wing as it comes. But as is stands I cant endorse their views on personal liberty (or often the lack thereof).
As for why California approved Prop. 8 and went for Obama its fairly simple. Obama carried some 60%+ of the Latino vote. Latinos also voted overwhelmingly FOR Prop. 8. Add into that the already clearly delineated lines one which most people voted and the answer is pretty clear.
As for Patrick Henry being a Bible thumper; so was King. Even with the rest of the quote it does little to dull the overall thrust of his message and beliefs. Henry wanted to put an end to slavery which cannot help but speak to a belief in equality.
The use of Bush's quote is also highly suspect based on its original use but I mainly thought that it would be amusing.
The bottom line is this: The main force behind the passage of Prop. 8 was religion. I feel that it is inappropriate for an institution which has been given special privilege, in the form of tax exempt status, to deny a privilege which has no bearing on their operations, nor threatens their status (in a governmental sense) to another group.
The religious opposition to gay marriage is born purely from a knee jerk reaction of "God hates fags" or some such, possibly more eloquent, opinion. Rather than from reasoned debate on a secular level. It is a perfect example of church influencing state. Which, although not exactly unheard of is, in this case, particularly abhorrent.
Apparently Mormons, Catholics, Pentecostals, etc. are tolerant enough to vote for a black man. But when Joe Six Pack wants to marry Joe the Plumber they get their panties in a bunch.
Well, yes... as Andy so brilliantly put it... America is more misogynistic than racist. *cackle*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4 from what I gather actually had an effect. I think it scared people. When I saw it, I LAUGHED. It hadn't occurred to me that we teach young children about marriage in schools. Social indoctrination!
I have remarked often with Andy that because I grew up in New Hampshire, I have some very specific views that you probably wouldn't find in say, California public schools... let's face it, being in New England, they put a lot of emphasis on the American Revolution, and how much you should love your country.
I think we agree on a lot of things, but I take exception to using a Patrick Henry quote about oppression from a distant King and applying it to something that sadly, the majority VOTED FOR. I get nervous thinking about the Supreme Court deciding these matters, because I know the desire to bring up Roe v. Wade is still lurking in a lot of people's minds. I had hoped that since the decision has stood for so long, it would help to evolve our society, but it hasn't made a difference.
Actually, I take that back... from wikipedia... "The poll also showed majority support among those under 50 years of age, with 68 percent of 18 to 29 year olds favoring same-sex marriage. Among those 65 or older, support drops to 36 percent." That kind of social change takes time, and they've been talking about gay marriage in California since the 1970s.
Next up: physician assisted suicide. I see Washington passed that one during this election, but that is still only 2 states.
Listen Patrick Henry aside, my argument is still valid. In this instance I will substitute a quote by my second favorite Brit: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Palmer made a pretty valid comment on my other post as well, specifically in regards to voter turn out. I have other qualms about the American voting and representation system as well but this is one of my major ones: Record voter turn out for this years election meant over 50% turnout. It is hard to claim that the "majority" voted for something when most times the majority of people dont even bother to vote.
I know, I shouldnt rail on the apparent apathy of the average American to make my point but it is a concern. What horrifies me is that there were probably people who this law directly affects that didnt vote. Im not sure what Im trying to say here so Ill just restate my thesis, a tried and true method: Denying the homosexual community a right (or privilege depending on how you view it) that you have, simply on the basis of your religion is tantamount to a similar group telling you that your right to worship as you choose is void because their religion is against it.
Atheists, as a whole, dont go around demanding that people stop being religious (though many do mock Theists). It just saddens me that people apparently have no problem with bigotry when it is relgiiously motivated.
Nick, just gave me the best example ever. I asked him why he is against gay marriage, as a joke. His answer (also a joke):"Because I think two guys having sex is gross."
Sadly, I find this answer more acceptable than "Because its against my religion." At least The former is honest. Not really any less ignorant but at least its probably the truth, for more people than will likely admit it.
Leave Patrick Henry out of it. This is a religion-dictating-jurisprudence problem, and Patrick Henry was a big ol' Bible Thumping Fire and Brimstone PURITAN just like the rest of our founding fathers. And really, shouldn't we save those kind of quotes for ... special times?
The BLUEST state in the nation who voted for Obama in droves... voted to repeal gay marriage. Now, either they were confused (which may be the case, it was poorly worded) or the voice of the people have spoken, and y'all who were upset that the Supreme Court 'chose our president' are looking forward to having them address the issue of marriage?
reminder: I voted AGAINST prop 8, I see no problem with gay marriage, I think it will be beneficial to the country as a whole and California in specific can make use of the extra money from marriage licenses and whatnot. I just want everyone to keep their goddamn religion out of my politics. :P
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
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As for why California approved Prop. 8 and went for Obama its fairly simple. Obama carried some 60%+ of the Latino vote. Latinos also voted overwhelmingly FOR Prop. 8. Add into that the already clearly delineated lines one which most people voted and the answer is pretty clear.
As for Patrick Henry being a Bible thumper; so was King. Even with the rest of the quote it does little to dull the overall thrust of his message and beliefs. Henry wanted to put an end to slavery which cannot help but speak to a belief in equality.
The use of Bush's quote is also highly suspect based on its original use but I mainly thought that it would be amusing.
The bottom line is this: The main force behind the passage of Prop. 8 was religion. I feel that it is inappropriate for an institution which has been given special privilege, in the form of tax exempt status, to deny a privilege which has no bearing on their operations, nor threatens their status (in a governmental sense) to another group.
The religious opposition to gay marriage is born purely from a knee jerk reaction of "God hates fags" or some such, possibly more eloquent, opinion. Rather than from reasoned debate on a secular level. It is a perfect example of church influencing state. Which, although not exactly unheard of is, in this case, particularly abhorrent.
Apparently Mormons, Catholics, Pentecostals, etc. are tolerant enough to vote for a black man. But when Joe Six Pack wants to marry Joe the Plumber they get their panties in a bunch.
Reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4 from what I gather actually had an effect. I think it scared people. When I saw it, I LAUGHED. It hadn't occurred to me that we teach young children about marriage in schools. Social indoctrination!
I have remarked often with Andy that because I grew up in New Hampshire, I have some very specific views that you probably wouldn't find in say, California public schools... let's face it, being in New England, they put a lot of emphasis on the American Revolution, and how much you should love your country.
I think we agree on a lot of things, but I take exception to using a Patrick Henry quote about oppression from a distant King and applying it to something that sadly, the majority VOTED FOR. I get nervous thinking about the Supreme Court deciding these matters, because I know the desire to bring up Roe v. Wade is still lurking in a lot of people's minds. I had hoped that since the decision has stood for so long, it would help to evolve our society, but it hasn't made a difference.
Actually, I take that back... from wikipedia... "The poll also showed majority support among those under 50 years of age, with 68 percent of 18 to 29 year olds favoring same-sex marriage. Among those 65 or older, support drops to 36 percent." That kind of social change takes time, and they've been talking about gay marriage in California since the 1970s.
Next up: physician assisted suicide. I see Washington passed that one during this election, but that is still only 2 states.
(and I miss you. we should chat.)
Reply
In this instance I will substitute a quote by my second favorite Brit:
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Palmer made a pretty valid comment on my other post as well, specifically in regards to voter turn out. I have other qualms about the American voting and representation system as well but this is one of my major ones: Record voter turn out for this years election meant over 50% turnout. It is hard to claim that the "majority" voted for something when most times the majority of people dont even bother to vote.
I know, I shouldnt rail on the apparent apathy of the average American to make my point but it is a concern. What horrifies me is that there were probably people who this law directly affects that didnt vote.
Im not sure what Im trying to say here so Ill just restate my thesis, a tried and true method: Denying the homosexual community a right (or privilege depending on how you view it) that you have, simply on the basis of your religion is tantamount to a similar group telling you that your right to worship as you choose is void because their religion is against it.
Atheists, as a whole, dont go around demanding that people stop being religious (though many do mock Theists). It just saddens me that people apparently have no problem with bigotry when it is relgiiously motivated.
Nick, just gave me the best example ever. I asked him why he is against gay marriage, as a joke. His answer (also a joke):"Because I think two guys having sex is gross."
Sadly, I find this answer more acceptable than "Because its against my religion." At least The former is honest. Not really any less ignorant but at least its probably the truth, for more people than will likely admit it.
(and yes, I miss you too. call me sometime.)
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