I saw this a while ago and didn't respond. I assume this Victor is somebody known to you? Curious.
Victor no doubt had his own faith system in place. Not being willing to hear your ideas didn't mean he didn't have ideas of his own that worked well for him. He should be respected for that.
Being frightened at the final moments..., that's not good, perhaps he wasn't ready to pass at that moment but I wouldn't judge him for it either. Whatever he saw he saw from inside his perspective, not valid for us to project our perspectives into his experience. Perhaps he held his attachments to this life a little longer in the process than some do and so began to cry as he realized this life was ending for him. His attachments to this life caused him anxiety and suffering, not the imminent end which he could clearly see coming. If we are conscious of our attachments we can cut the ties at the right moment and pass peacefully. To pass in peace, that's very important.
Those who remain behind must know that helping another cross over peacefully is the most important thing that anybody can ever do for another. If that is what his wife did for him then she has given the greatest gift possible to her husband. As difficult as it was she fulfilled her duty to him, she did well. She should be honored.
I would be loath to judge Victor for not converting at his death bed; I would respect him for staying true to his convictions. Rest assured we will all face that final moment with our own convictions in place. Let us hope that those who surround us will respect our own ways and assist us in our own path as we move through the veil of death. The path for peace and happiness is defined differently for everybody; we should respect and honor all paths that lead us away from suffering.
Hi Dave ... it only took me 1 year and a couple of months to see your response. They have been hectic months and life has changed; first for the worse; then for the better :) I wouldn't change either of the short journeys. God really does work all things together for good. I enjoyed your entire post. Took in the warning on feeling too much confidence in my own estimation of what was happening. I have considered it could have been some psychological fear coming from his own inner mind. But all in all, I really do use the Bible as the standard. His distain for God and arrogant attitude, IF it honestly represented his feelings were a rejection of God and His offer of eternal life.
One other thing I thought about, it is never too late. In his fear, even after he could no longer speak to or respond to those around him, he could have still called out to God.
It seems to me, it the Bible doesn't really teach and mean that faith in God is necessary, the new birth that happens to you when you reach out to Him isn't real, then there would be no understanding the Bible at all.
He said many are called, few are chosen ... where does that leave the many that were called but rejected Him?
I have had two other people reject soundly on their death bed. I never knew that hair really does stand up on the back of your head, but it does :) I sat talking to a man in his 40's that lived across the street from me. He and his family were very reclusive & I was actually scared to go. I baked cookie & knocked, with shaking knees, on their door. The wife was SO nice and friendly. Invited me in to meet her husband whose bed had been set up in the living room next to the windows that looked directly over to my house. He also was very friendly. I told them the neighborhood knew about the trial they were facing and felt bad we hadn't reached out to know them earlier. At some point I told him straight out that whether or not he knew the Lord had been my constant thought since I heard. Did he mind if we discussed it. No, he didn't at all. At first he joyfully told me his uncle had buildt a church for the people & that type of thing had kind of been in his blood all his life. He talked about a lot of things. When I finally brought it back to whether he himself had trusted Christ or knew Him, this weak man (died within two weeks) rose up on his elbow, stared right in my eyes and snarled, "I didn't need Him for living and I sure don't need Him for dying." The man's face indicated he meant every word. That's when the hair on the back of my neck and up a couple of inches moved.
I talked to his wife about 1 1/2 years later when she came back to sell the house that she had rented out. She said she had been a born again Christian and married him in a rebellious time in her life. He has been extremely hostile and very controlling not wanting her or their two children to have contact with anyone. She had been so happy when I began to talk to him, but as far as she knew, he died not wanting Christ. She had met a man back home and they had recently married. He too is a strong Christian ... & they lived happily ever after???? Ha ha ha. I hope so, but we all know happily ever after is really 'joy along with the trials.
AvalokiteśvaradavehillDecember 18 2009, 03:55:57 UTC
"I really do use the Bible as the standard."
That certainly is your choice. It's a choice that provides all the answers you need. It is a good choice for you. Not everybody makes that choice and nobody should be judged for making different choices that better fulfill their needs.
I hear judgment in the tone of your writing "His distain for God and arrogant attitude, IF it honestly represented his feelings were a rejection of God and His offer of eternal life. "
Wouldst thou care to be judged by other people's standards? What if a Buddhist were to presume that because he hadn't accepted the loving embrace of Avalokiteshvara that he would be condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering, endless cycles of rebirth and death? What if a Muslim were to presume that because he hadn't bowed to Mecca and submitted to the will of God using phrases from the Koran that he would condemned to an eternity of pain in hell? I don't understand how anybody can judge another in this life for not believing the things that we choose to believe. The system that you adhere to has major flaws in it, logical inconsistencies and inherent contradictions, but you chose to ignore them so that you can continue on in your faith. All faith systems have flaws and contradictions embedded in them, no one system is regarded as the truth by everybody, yet for every faith system there are those who choose to believe despite the inherent irregularities. Faith systems provide answers for certain deep psychological needs that lie well beyond ration and reasoning, hence the choice to believe has more to do with how well that faith appeals to your subconscious sensibilities than it does to some ultimate universal truth.
It seems to me that you have placed yourself in a superior position to those around you as having a superior faith system to all others. How did you get that appointment? If you would choose to pass judgment on those who have sought another path would you not also be subject to judgment by their standards?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.>
Every major faith system in this world, from Hindu to Baha’i, has some version of this simple truth at the core of their mission. You need to have respect for the faith systems of others in order to expect others show respect for your own. If you insist on the exclusivity of truth residing in your own faith system then you have placed yourself above all others and in doing so have violated the highest universal truth that Christianity and all other faith systems hold to be the single most important commandment. Faith is deeply personal business. Respect of other people's sensibilities is extremely hard when you are so absolutely certain of your own, but that is the challenge we all face in order to live in our communities together in peace. It is a difficult balance between our faith and respect of others but it is our responsibility to achieve that balance.
If people are miserable, cranky, manipulative, domineering..., it is a sign that they are miserable, cranky, manipulative, and domineering people, hard people to love. It is not a sign of whether their faith system is somehow defective. Some of the most foul and insane people I have met in my life have accepted Jesus as their savior - they are still foul and insane. Some of the sweetest and most profound people I have met have accepted Jesus as their savior. It is a highly personal affair, not indicative of how you will behave or be accepted by others.
If your faith works for you then celebrate it as it works for you. In the ways it makes you a better person that is good. Be careful to not project your views onto others. It will distort your vision of them and they in turn will react accordingly.
Be mindful towards others as you would have others be mindful towards you.
Re: AvalokiteśvaraglomeDecember 18 2009, 04:32:01 UTC
Wow. We really think differently.
" It's a choice that provides all the answers you need. It is a good choice for you." and ... "Wouldst thou care to be judged by other people's standards?"
I'm sure we're all judged all the time by others for one reason or the other. That doesn't make them right or wrong. It doesn't make me right or wrong. And ... unless it is absolute truth, it is not a good choice for me.
The only standard that matters is that of the Creator. It isn't whether a set of beliefs 'works for me' it is whether or not the beliefs held are truth.
The God of the Bible claims to be the only God and Creator. He says it straight out. If He's lying it certainly isn't a good choice for anyone. God came to earth as a man named Jesus. Jesus died on the cross and said straight out that he carried everyone's sins in His body & paid the prise for them. If he's a liar he is evil.
In John 3:18,19 John 3:18-18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; !!!he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. !!! 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. NASU
I don't think it best because it is my belief. I think it is truth because God said it. He is the only one that knows truth. He said the truth is men are now judged not by our sins because all have sinned ... but Christ took them out of us and put them in himself. But we are judged by whether or not we put our faith in the truth ... He said I am the truth and the life.
So I'm not measureing MY thoughts against other men ... I'm measuring the thought and words of the Spirit of God against other men. For many reasons I choose Him. His own words judge us; not mine.
I know several budhists. Sponcered an article with one. We are both hard headed but if doesn't interfere with our friendship. In fact that's one of the reasons I love Gather. You get to know some of various eastern religions. Of course some religious discussion are very hostile. Strange ... the ones that are down right nasty. But there are lots that have great discussions.
Re: AvalokiteśvaraveritasinverseApril 1 2010, 20:36:47 UTC
Hi, glome
Having a few minutes, I'm looking at the journals of old LJ friends I haven't chatted with lately. I wish I had seen this conversation before. Anyway...
I like the poem. While I don't agree with everything it says, I think you did a nice job with it. Now, allow me to ramble on for a bit concerning belief systems.
unless it is absolute truth, it is not a good choice for me.
One can have absolute faith that something is true. That has no effect on the objective fact of its truth or falsity. You can have absolute faith that every word in the Holy Bible is divinely inspired, the implicit word of God. You can live your life on that belief. The problem comes when you--or anyone--confuses belief about truth with absolute truth. No man can know the absolute truth about any religious tenet. We can have opinions. We can have beliefs. If true to our beliefs, we will try to live our lives in accordance with our beliefs. The problem with deciding that the Christians are right about everything is that it inevitably leads to many other faiths being wrong about some or all of their beliefs. That's about the time a synagogue gets bombed or an abortion doctor gets shot.
"The only standard that matters is that of the Creator."
That's a belief, one you're entitled to, but you really shouldn't confuse any belief with fact. They're separate and distinct things. Facts are always true (the Earth revolves around the Sun). A belief that the Sun revolves around the Earth can never be true, not even if every person on the Earth were to believe it.
The God of the Bible claims to be the only God and Creator. He says it straight out.
The Bible, written by men, maintains that. It could be true. One can legitimately choose to believe that it's true.
He who believes in Him is not judged; !!!he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The strong appeal of that isn't hard to understand. How easy that makes salvation: Don't worry about doing good, no problem just go ahead and do evil--but just "believe." You and I know enough to sort people by their conduct, their specific choices in how they deal with their fellow humans, but the Lord doesn't?
"I think it is truth because God said it."
Failure to add a second "I think" to such sentences has brought much woe to the world--to this day. Who could argue with: "I think it is truth because I think God said it."
"He is the only one that knows truth."
You and I know the truth of many things: 2 = 2 = 4; rain gets us wet; the Earth revolves around the Sun; ad infinitum. Would a Creator understand things we don't, like how we got here? Sure.
He said the truth is men are now judged not by our sins because all have sinned
All men have done evil at some point in their lives. That doesn't make their behavior equivalent. If that were true, every human should be in prison serving the same term of punishment. The jaywalker and the serial killer aren't equally wrong in our eyes, so why would they be in God's eyes? Surely, He's capable of making any distinction we can make.
Christ took them out of us and put them in himself
The problem with such statements is the "I believe" missing from the front of them. Instead, there's an implicit "I know."
So I'm not measureing MY thoughts against other men ... I'm measuring the thought and words of the Spirit of God against other men
No, I fear you're mislabeling belief/doctrine as "truth."
I know several budhists. Sponcered an article with one. We are both hard headed but if doesn't interfere with our friendship
As it shouldn't.
Of course some religious discussion are very hostile.
Think about why that's true.
"But there are lots that have great discussions."
As long as participants are tolerant of the views of others, I'm sure that's the case.
I hope things are well with you. Please don't take any of my comments as a condemnation of belief itself or believers.
YES! Now I know why I like you veri. I never was really sure. I would read your chat. You're chat's not my type but I used to go back again. You gave tips and wrote good poetry but, again, not my type often. But I wanted to hear what you had to say at times.
LOGIC. You are logical. That's what was peeking through your writing. I love it. Logic is so important. Truth is logical ... if not, it either isn't truth or you don't have all the facts. You just wrote a very logical rebuttal (Well, fairly logical :) and I enjoyed it. In philosophy club I told the teenagers they needed a friendly adversary, logical with integrity.
Thanks for responding. Thanks for your compliment on the poem.
veri; "One can have absolute faith that something is true. That has no effect on the objective fact of its truth or falsity."
Me; I'm in perfect agreement.
veri: "The problem comes when you--or anyone--confuses belief about truth with absolute truth. No man can know the absolute truth about any religious tenet."
Me; You would be absolutely true if the only truths were the facts that can be known by natural means. But even with outside intervention, specifically God, their is a measure of faith needed. However, the outside intervention gives you facts that those who have not put their faith in Christ do not have.
Of course, because they have not experienced a new birth, they are convinced that it is our imagination. I understand that. But it does not affect the fact that we were changed that day.
The Lord created creations. His desire was for children. He came up with a plan whereby the creation would have to make a choice for themselves whether or not they would want to be part of the family of God. Most choose not to. I can't understand why. Those that call out to Him and ask Him to show them the truth ... are responded to by God. God doesn't want cute little robot children without experience or strength. He takes us through a pretty strenuous life after we've accepted Him as Lord.
I know Christ lives. From that point on you begin to read the Bible very differently.
I'm showing you only some verses that deal with the fact that when Jesus raised from the dead after he paid for the sins of the world (per Him) He now births His new resurrected life into every creation that decides to want Him. At that moment, you become a child & are given a mind capable of knowing and understanding (little by little) what God is doing and what He has written because the new life in you is real.
That's why Christians die for their faith and keep believing no matter how much human logic you give us. In a way, you might say we're looking down your throat. We hear you, we see your logic, but we know. Irritating isn't it ? :)
I try not to call myself a Christian. That is a man made name that now carries so much baggage. You can be religious all your life and it means nothing. Having a relationship with Christ and being born into the Family of God is God's goal. Once you receive Him you are excited to get with an interesting group and learn together.
Christ Himself said No man can come to God except through Him. He alone is the door. I have put my faith in Him. I have no idea on my own. I know that He lives and accept His word as truth over all men.
These verse just tell a tiny bit about what happens when you put your faith in God. The result of the new birth.
2 Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Cor 2:9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
His spirit come to live within us from the time we receive Christ.
Sorry I'm preaching. I'm telling you what facts I use in my own logic. I do also want to say this, He said he didn't come after the 'good' people any more than a doctor makes a house call on the well. He is a savior and he came to all the people that are hopeless sinners; a mess; can't live right. So those of us that say we are 'saved' are really saying I'm a mess but I'm His anyway. It isn't bragging. :)
Re: AvalokiteśvaraveritasinverseApril 2 2010, 21:18:32 UTC
I know Christ lives
One could try (charitably) say it's just quibbling about semantics. It really isn't. The reason: When believers blur the line between what they know and what they believe may also be true, Pandora's box springs open. Gays lose basic human rights. Abortion clinics need off duty cops to protect access. The line between church and state gets blurred by prayer in the classroom, Commandments in the courtroom, creches at City Hall, and so on.
He now births His new resurrected life into every creation that decides to want Him. At that moment, you become a child & are given a mind capable of knowing and understanding (little by little) what God is doing and what He has written because the new life in you is real.
Doesn't this view paint God as a somewhat vain creature, more interested in supplicants than justice?
Sorry I'm preaching. I'm telling you what facts I use in my own logic.
Preaching doesn't bother me. That said, logic precludes prematurely identifying beliefs as facts. A thing can be both, of course. Einstein could have a theory based mostly on mathematics. He could have a lot of faith that his theory was correct. Only astronomical observations could ultimately demonstrate that his belief/theory was in fact "true." His faith demonstrated only that he believed the theory to be true.
Re: AvalokiteśvaradavehillApril 5 2010, 03:45:23 UTC
How do I get that ugly piece of advertisment out of there? I've been looking but they don't say how. @~$%&!! :)
Doesn't this view paint God as a somewhat vain creature, more interested in supplicants than justice?
Me; No. As a human would you like to have a puppet or another human as a child? It makes sense that He wants something more comprable to Himself. It's unique that He wants those that choose to be His. I like it that way. And then He raises us, the same as we raise our own children.
That said, logic precludes prematurely identifying beliefs as facts.
Me. I didn't make it clear. My point was saying to you that when Christ rebirths us we are different. Something actually comes into us and we discern His truth, hear His word in a new way. I am saying we have facts that you don't have. We use those facts in our logic. But it only makes sense that people that haven't experienced the new birth will think it our imagination. The thing that happened to me the first night I never mentioned to anyone for 15 years. It didn't seem necessary. it was 2 things. Him removing the weight of all sin; and He Himself coming in and showing me something. But Christ is different with each person. It is personal.
I don't think I've ever told a non Christian (if you are or aren't) that before because it seems foolishness to them. I don't care tonight. I was there :) I just want you to consider that there are facts available to some that confirm logic that are not available to all.
He said you must choose Him by faith. That's His choice to make. He has a reason to require you to step out in faith. Even if you don't have any faith in a doctor, by getting up on his operating table and allowing them to put the mask on you, you have enabled the doctor to heal you. Although you were filled with doubt, climbing up on the table was an act of faith & resulted in the work being done.
Even if one doubts, he can call out to God. Open the Bible to Romans or Galatians and start reading trusting God to give him sight.
You don't need to respond :) My lips are sealed Ha ha ha. Not! It is just important to me for you to know
My point was saying to you that when Christ rebirths us we are different. Something actually comes into us and we discern His truth, hear His word in a new way. I am saying we have facts that you don't have.
Respectfully, I just don't think that's true. Again, you are confusing belief/faith with facts/truth. You can believe with all your heart that every word in the edition of the Bible you read is true, if you so choose. No problem. Tell me you "know" the Bible is true, I'll have to tell you I think you "know" nothing of the sort. It's more than semantics.
But it only makes sense that people that haven't experienced the new birth will think it our imagination.
You said that before. I don't see where "imagination" comes into it. Again, it's about belief/faith, not truth, facts, imagination, hallucination. You believe certain things to be true that no man can know to be true. If God created everything, then he created our ability to reason. Say you accept certain things on faith, that you "believe" certain things, and only a fool will try to deny you that.
Him removing the weight of all sin
I think that is unlikely, but it doesn't bother me at all that you believe it. People find comfort where they can. As long as they do no injury to others, who is harmed by any article of faith?
I just want you to consider that there are facts available to some that confirm logic that are not available to all.
I fear I'll never be able to accept confusing truth with belief. You should think about why you choose to use inappropriate language to proclaim your faith.
He said you must choose Him by faith.
That's what the Bible says. The Bible was written, edited, and re-edited by men. I suspect, knowing human nature, that anything which didn't fit the desired picture was excluded. I suspect that contradictions were reconciled.
He has a reason to require you to step out in faith.
I "judge" people by their conduct, their specific behavior towards others. If I'm wise enough to do that, I suspect the Creator would be as well. Salvation by faith alone strikes me as an all too human preference for the easy, painless way. Human beings love a free meal.
Even if one doubts, he can call out to God.
I'm sure there were many believers in foxholes, even if only until the danger passed.
Re: AvalokiteśvaraveritasinverseApril 2 2010, 20:29:17 UTC
because they have not experienced a new birth, they are convinced that it is our imagination
I don't think that's true. That's not what I think, and I wouldn't say it's what Dave suggests in his first two comments (I haven't read his others yet, maybe they suggest something different). Faith is assuming something is true even though the tangible evidence appears to be inadequate to incontrovertibly demonstrate that it's true. I have faith that my wife has never cheated. I can't know that she hasn't. People place and misplace faith as they choose. There is no problem until they try to sell faith at fact prices.
we were changed that day
I'm sure that "faith" can transform. At the same time, I've witnessed the actual behavior of many who claimed to have been transformed by answering an altar call. Conduct can be truly transformed by actual acceptance of one simple principle: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I'm sure some people are changed at the altar; others aren't but claim they are; others are but relapse into their sinful ways; etc. etc.
Re: AvalokiteśvaradavehillApril 2 2010, 03:57:49 UTC
Ahhh...
I thought this discussion faded into oblivion. I'm glad to see somebody read it.
It was clear to me that Glome needed to frame her entire world within a Christian context within her understanding of Christian doctrine and dogma. Stepping outside that context makes her very uncomfortable, she has no moorings to work from if it "can't be found in the bible".
As she said "we think very differently".
I have never been comfortable having others tell me how to think or what to believe, having others frame my worldview for me, but then again that is just me, cranky and independent. Others are quite comfortable with having a church / preacher define their moral and ethical standards for them. They can manage their lives quite well with a prepackaged ideal to guide them, clear easy to understand definitions of right and wrong from which all of life's experiences can be measured. Without judging from my perspective I can see how that could work for some.
If all parties realize that we each satisfy our own needs our own way, that my way is not superior to any other in any regard except as it applies to me, then people of different beliefs can coexist in peace, respecting the sanctity in each other's faith system. Unfortunately it is difficult for most people to attain that level of self awareness and enlightenment. It is far more common and far easier to rely upon a more fundamentalist interpretations that invariably casts people as agents of good or evil, the saved and the cursed, conservatives or liberals, etc. Whether consciously intentional or not many people who practice their faith systems do so by creating demons and devils of those who believe differently. Those who are good often feel compelled to bring others into the fold, a proselytizing duty to save everybody around them. That urge to convert others, of course, is highly disrespectful to those who are deeply embedded in a different tradition of faith and it cuts off real communication between people, squelches any opportunity to learn from other perspectives. It's a sure-fire formula for conflict.
I met Glome on a political debate site some years ago. She impressed me then as somebody with conservative views who could still consider listening and learning from those with sensibilities different from her own. I still feel that she doesn't get hostile when openly challenged, but I recognize that she is not about to change her world view either. That's why these "discussions" drop off the radar for years at a time. Neither of us are going to change. Both of us know that, and just leave it at there.
Dave;"...church / preacher define their moral and ethical standards for them ..."
Me. Dave, that's a misunderstanding of what goes on. Once you know Christ everything is different. Sure you learn from older Christians at first but you soon take over and learn yourself. I don't buy anyone's word for anything. I have about 20 versions of translated Bible plus the Greek and Hebrew and maps. It never occurs to me preachers know more than me just because they preach. Of course we do all learn from each other too. But we take it home and research it. So those that really know Him don't swallow pre packaged theology as fact. That's cutting us down a littttle bit too small.
David; "...that my way is not superior to any other in any regard except as it applies to me, then people of different beliefs can coexist in peace, respecting the sanctity in each other's faith system ..."
Me. Ha ha ha. I probably come across thinking I am superior. But it is God who is superior. It is HIS word I am saying is TRUTH. I know nothing in and of myself. I think it is ridiculous to say all religions are great if they are not. If you stumbled onto the truth of something that would easily allow you to live forever and didn't tell others, what kind of a person would you be? The problem is that since you haven't found it, you are sure no one else has either. You don't know that for sure.
Many religions teach things different than the God of the Bible. Totally opposite. They cannot all be right just because they make people happy or because people think it is rude to disagree in such areas.
If I had not accepted Christ and been born again I would not know which one was right. Now I do. I don't go to others pages and preach to them. I know better than that (unless the article is there for debate) but feel free to state what I know as God's word here. And I welcome all debate. I know it sound idiotic to people until they, themselves begin to call out to God for understanding. Then, the God of the universe actually begins to move on behalf of the one that called out to Him.
Re: AvalokiteśvaradavehillApril 2 2010, 17:39:59 UTC
I know it sound idiotic to people until they, themselves begin to call out to God for understanding. Then, the God of the universe actually begins to move on behalf of the one that called out to Him.
This is one element that is common to all religions and spiritual traditions, though each frame this invocation of will to the universe within different cultural traditions.
You are comfortable with the way that idea is framed within Christianity and find solace and direction in that idea as presented via Christian doctrine. A careful study of other faiths will find the same idea present but framed in different contexts, different contexts of understanding of the sublimation of self and the opening to greater wisdom from a higher source. When you are "having debates" with Buddhists or others are you able to sense this common thread? Do you focus on that and discuss it at length? Can you find other common elements of your faith that you share with them?
It seems to me that conflicts between people of various faiths occur because those involved in their faiths are more focused on the minute details of their own salvation and redemption, looking at the small picture from inside their own worldview, rather than trying to reach out and come to genuine understanding about others within their own worldview. Imposing my worldview on you would be objectionable to you. How do you think it feels in reverse?
Point: My good friend in Spain is a very devout Catholic. Many years ago she met a nice looking young American couple who came to her door and wanted to talk about God and Jesus. Maria was thrilled at the opportunity, invited them into her home and chatted with them. Their Spanish wasn't real good and her English was even worse but they hit it off royally, had a great conversation. It wasn't until later when I saw the literature that they left behind that I pointed out to her that these were Mormons doing their mission work in Spain, a land of heathens who hadn't accepted the teachings of Moroni as received by Joseph Smith. When I informed Maria what they were actually here to do, to bring her the word of truth and light that she apparently had never been exposed to before and therefore hadn't accepted as truth, she was appalled!! She had no idea what had just happened, was utterly dumbfounded that anybody would do that to her. You see, Maria had always supported mission work in China, India and other lands of ignorant heathens who needed to be saved by the Catholic church. Having the situation turned around on her was shocking.
My dear friend, you don't understand what it is like to be somebody other than yourself. If you have found salvation and eternal life via your faith in God and that allows you to live in your life path then I am happy for you. Please realize that your TRUTH is for you to live. Respect others as they also look for their TRUTH and manage their own lives accordingly.
Are there problems with other faiths, internal contraditions and logical holes and leaps? Absolutely!! The problems of other faiths are awfully easy to see if you do not share their faith system. Should you focus on those problems or feel that you have found absolute TRUTH in your own faith system? It's your option of course, but pointing out problems with other people's faith systems while not being able to hear them tell you about the problems they see within your own faith system is a formula for conflict, a conflict that you will be generating. Is that something that Christianity teaches, to raise conflicts with others? I hardly think so.
We think differently, my friend.
I'm not trying to convert you. I want you to understand that I am who I am. I do not have the same needs for redeption and salvation as you have. I should be respected within the context of my own faith. Your faith system seems to drive you to try to change others around you. Your faith system does NOT show respect for others. Be careful.
Victor no doubt had his own faith system in place. Not being willing to hear your ideas didn't mean he didn't have ideas of his own that worked well for him. He should be respected for that.
Being frightened at the final moments..., that's not good, perhaps he wasn't ready to pass at that moment but I wouldn't judge him for it either. Whatever he saw he saw from inside his perspective, not valid for us to project our perspectives into his experience. Perhaps he held his attachments to this life a little longer in the process than some do and so began to cry as he realized this life was ending for him. His attachments to this life caused him anxiety and suffering, not the imminent end which he could clearly see coming. If we are conscious of our attachments we can cut the ties at the right moment and pass peacefully. To pass in peace, that's very important.
Those who remain behind must know that helping another cross over peacefully is the most important thing that anybody can ever do for another. If that is what his wife did for him then she has given the greatest gift possible to her husband. As difficult as it was she fulfilled her duty to him, she did well. She should be honored.
I would be loath to judge Victor for not converting at his death bed; I would respect him for staying true to his convictions. Rest assured we will all face that final moment with our own convictions in place. Let us hope that those who surround us will respect our own ways and assist us in our own path as we move through the veil of death. The path for peace and happiness is defined differently for everybody; we should respect and honor all paths that lead us away from suffering.
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I wouldn't change either of the short journeys. God really does work all things together for good.
I enjoyed your entire post. Took in the warning on feeling too much confidence in my own estimation of what was happening. I have considered it could have been some psychological fear coming from his own inner mind.
But all in all, I really do use the Bible as the standard. His distain for God and arrogant attitude, IF it honestly represented his feelings were a rejection of God and His offer of eternal life.
One other thing I thought about, it is never too late. In his fear, even after he could no longer speak to or respond to those around him, he could have still called out to God.
It seems to me, it the Bible doesn't really teach and mean that faith in God is necessary, the new birth that happens to you when you reach out to Him isn't real, then there would be no understanding the Bible at all.
He said many are called, few are chosen ... where does that leave the many that were called but rejected Him?
I have had two other people reject soundly on their death bed. I never knew that hair really does stand up on the back of your head, but it does :) I sat talking to a man in his 40's that lived across the street from me. He and his family were very reclusive & I was actually scared to go. I baked cookie & knocked, with shaking knees, on their door. The wife was SO nice and friendly. Invited me in to meet her husband whose bed had been set up in the living room next to the windows that looked directly over to my house. He also was very friendly.
I told them the neighborhood knew about the trial they were facing and felt bad we hadn't reached out to know them earlier. At some point I told him straight out that whether or not he knew the Lord had been my constant thought since I heard. Did he mind if we discussed it. No, he didn't at all. At first he joyfully told me his uncle had buildt a church for the people & that type of thing had kind of been in his blood all his life. He talked about a lot of things. When I finally brought it back to whether he himself had trusted Christ or knew Him, this weak man (died within two weeks) rose up on his elbow, stared right in my eyes and snarled, "I didn't need Him for living and I sure don't need Him for dying."
The man's face indicated he meant every word. That's when the hair on the back of my neck and up a couple of inches moved.
I talked to his wife about 1 1/2 years later when she came back to sell the house that she had rented out. She said she had been a born again Christian and married him in a rebellious time in her life. He has been extremely hostile and very controlling not wanting her or their two children to have contact with anyone. She had been so happy when I began to talk to him, but as far as she knew, he died not wanting Christ. She had met a man back home and they had recently married. He too is a strong Christian ... & they lived happily ever after???? Ha ha ha. I hope so, but we all know happily ever after is really 'joy along with the trials.
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That certainly is your choice. It's a choice that provides all the answers you need. It is a good choice for you. Not everybody makes that choice and nobody should be judged for making different choices that better fulfill their needs.
I hear judgment in the tone of your writing "His distain for God and arrogant attitude, IF it honestly represented his feelings were a rejection of God and His offer of eternal life.
"
Wouldst thou care to be judged by other people's standards? What if a Buddhist were to presume that because he hadn't accepted the loving embrace of Avalokiteshvara that he would be condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering, endless cycles of rebirth and death? What if a Muslim were to presume that because he hadn't bowed to Mecca and submitted to the will of God using phrases from the Koran that he would condemned to an eternity of pain in hell? I don't understand how anybody can judge another in this life for not believing the things that we choose to believe. The system that you adhere to has major flaws in it, logical inconsistencies and inherent contradictions, but you chose to ignore them so that you can continue on in your faith. All faith systems have flaws and contradictions embedded in them, no one system is regarded as the truth by everybody, yet for every faith system there are those who choose to believe despite the inherent irregularities. Faith systems provide answers for certain deep psychological needs that lie well beyond ration and reasoning, hence the choice to believe has more to do with how well that faith appeals to your subconscious sensibilities than it does to some ultimate universal truth.
It seems to me that you have placed yourself in a superior position to those around you as having a superior faith system to all others. How did you get that appointment? If you would choose to pass judgment on those who have sought another path would you not also be subject to judgment by their standards?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.>
Every major faith system in this world, from Hindu to Baha’i, has some version of this simple truth at the core of their mission. You need to have respect for the faith systems of others in order to expect others show respect for your own. If you insist on the exclusivity of truth residing in your own faith system then you have placed yourself above all others and in doing so have violated the highest universal truth that Christianity and all other faith systems hold to be the single most important commandment. Faith is deeply personal business. Respect of other people's sensibilities is extremely hard when you are so absolutely certain of your own, but that is the challenge we all face in order to live in our communities together in peace. It is a difficult balance between our faith and respect of others but it is our responsibility to achieve that balance.
If people are miserable, cranky, manipulative, domineering..., it is a sign that they are miserable, cranky, manipulative, and domineering people, hard people to love. It is not a sign of whether their faith system is somehow defective. Some of the most foul and insane people I have met in my life have accepted Jesus as their savior - they are still foul and insane. Some of the sweetest and most profound people I have met have accepted Jesus as their savior. It is a highly personal affair, not indicative of how you will behave or be accepted by others.
If your faith works for you then celebrate it as it works for you. In the ways it makes you a better person that is good. Be careful to not project your views onto others. It will distort your vision of them and they in turn will react accordingly.
Be mindful towards others as you would have others be mindful towards you.
Take care.
Dave
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" It's a choice that provides all the answers you need. It is a good choice for you." and ...
"Wouldst thou care to be judged by other people's standards?"
I'm sure we're all judged all the time by others for one reason or the other. That doesn't make them right or wrong. It doesn't make me right or wrong. And ... unless it is absolute truth, it is not a good choice for me.
The only standard that matters is that of the Creator. It isn't whether a set of beliefs 'works for me' it is whether or not the beliefs held are truth.
The God of the Bible claims to be the only God and Creator. He says it straight out. If He's lying it certainly isn't a good choice for anyone. God came to earth as a man named Jesus. Jesus died on the cross and said straight out that he carried everyone's sins in His body & paid the prise for them. If he's a liar he is evil.
In John 3:18,19 John 3:18-18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; !!!he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
!!!
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. NASU
I don't think it best because it is my belief. I think it is truth because God said it. He is the only one that knows truth. He said the truth is men are now judged not by our sins because all have sinned ... but Christ took them out of us and put them in himself. But we are judged by whether or not we put our faith in the truth ... He said I am the truth and the life.
So I'm not measureing MY thoughts against other men ... I'm measuring the thought and words of the Spirit of God against other men. For many reasons I choose Him. His own words judge us; not mine.
I know several budhists. Sponcered an article with one. We are both hard headed but if doesn't interfere with our friendship. In fact that's one of the reasons I love Gather. You get to know some of various eastern religions. Of course some religious discussion are very hostile. Strange ... the ones that are down right nasty. But there are lots that have great discussions.
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Having a few minutes, I'm looking at the journals of old LJ friends I haven't chatted with lately. I wish I had seen this conversation before. Anyway...
I like the poem. While I don't agree with everything it says, I think you did a nice job with it. Now, allow me to ramble on for a bit concerning belief systems.
unless it is absolute truth, it is not a good choice for me.
One can have absolute faith that something is true. That has no effect on the objective fact of its truth or falsity. You can have absolute faith that every word in the Holy Bible is divinely inspired, the implicit word of God. You can live your life on that belief. The problem comes when you--or anyone--confuses belief about truth with absolute truth. No man can know the absolute truth about any religious tenet. We can have opinions. We can have beliefs. If true to our beliefs, we will try to live our lives in accordance with our beliefs. The problem with deciding that the Christians are right about everything is that it inevitably leads to many other faiths being wrong about some or all of their beliefs. That's about the time a synagogue gets bombed or an abortion doctor gets shot.
"The only standard that matters is that of the Creator."
That's a belief, one you're entitled to, but you really shouldn't confuse any belief with fact. They're separate and distinct things. Facts are always true (the Earth revolves around the Sun). A belief that the Sun revolves around the Earth can never be true, not even if every person on the Earth were to believe it.
The God of the Bible claims to be the only God and Creator. He says it straight out.
The Bible, written by men, maintains that. It could be true. One can legitimately choose to believe that it's true.
He who believes in Him is not judged; !!!he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The strong appeal of that isn't hard to understand. How easy that makes salvation: Don't worry about doing good, no problem just go ahead and do evil--but just "believe." You and I know enough to sort people by their conduct, their specific choices in how they deal with their fellow humans, but the Lord doesn't?
"I think it is truth because God said it."
Failure to add a second "I think" to such sentences has brought much woe to the world--to this day. Who could argue with: "I think it is truth because I think God said it."
"He is the only one that knows truth."
You and I know the truth of many things: 2 = 2 = 4; rain gets us wet; the Earth revolves around the Sun; ad infinitum. Would a Creator understand things we don't, like how we got here? Sure.
He said the truth is men are now judged not by our sins because all have sinned
All men have done evil at some point in their lives. That doesn't make their behavior equivalent. If that were true, every human should be in prison serving the same term of punishment. The jaywalker and the serial killer aren't equally wrong in our eyes, so why would they be in God's eyes? Surely, He's capable of making any distinction we can make.
Christ took them out of us and put them in himself
The problem with such statements is the "I believe" missing from the front of them. Instead, there's an implicit "I know."
So I'm not measureing MY thoughts against other men ... I'm measuring the thought and words of the Spirit of God against other men
No, I fear you're mislabeling belief/doctrine as "truth."
I know several budhists. Sponcered an article with one. We are both hard headed but if doesn't interfere with our friendship
As it shouldn't.
Of course some religious discussion are very hostile.
Think about why that's true.
"But there are lots that have great discussions."
As long as participants are tolerant of the views of others, I'm sure that's the case.
I hope things are well with you. Please don't take any of my comments as a condemnation of belief itself or believers.
veri
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LOGIC. You are logical. That's what was peeking through your writing. I love it. Logic is so important. Truth is logical ... if not, it either isn't truth or you don't have all the facts. You just wrote a very logical rebuttal (Well, fairly logical :) and I enjoyed it. In philosophy club I told the teenagers they needed a friendly adversary, logical with integrity.
Thanks for responding. Thanks for your compliment on the poem.
veri; "One can have absolute faith that something is true. That has no effect on the objective fact of its truth or falsity."
Me; I'm in perfect agreement.
veri: "The problem comes when you--or anyone--confuses belief about truth with absolute truth. No man can know the absolute truth about any religious tenet."
Me; You would be absolutely true if the only truths were the facts that can be known by natural means. But even with outside intervention, specifically God, their is a measure of faith needed. However, the outside intervention gives you facts that those who have not put their faith in Christ do not have.
Of course, because they have not experienced a new birth, they are convinced that it is our imagination. I understand that. But it does not affect the fact that we were changed that day.
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The Lord created creations. His desire was for children. He came up with a plan whereby the creation would have to make a choice for themselves whether or not they would want to be part of the family of God. Most choose not to. I can't understand why. Those that call out to Him and ask Him to show them the truth ... are responded to by God. God doesn't want cute little robot children without experience or strength. He takes us through a pretty strenuous life after we've accepted Him as Lord.
I know Christ lives. From that point on you begin to read the Bible very differently.
I'm showing you only some verses that deal with the fact that when Jesus raised from the dead after he paid for the sins of the world (per Him) He now births His new resurrected life into every creation that decides to want Him. At that moment, you become a child & are given a mind capable of knowing and understanding (little by little) what God is doing and what He has written because the new life in you is real.
That's why Christians die for their faith and keep believing no matter how much human logic you give us. In a way, you might say we're looking down your throat. We hear you, we see your logic, but we know. Irritating isn't it ? :)
I try not to call myself a Christian. That is a man made name that now carries so much baggage. You can be religious all your life and it means nothing. Having a relationship with Christ and being born into the Family of God is God's goal. Once you receive Him you are excited to get with an interesting group and learn together.
Christ Himself said No man can come to God except through Him. He alone is the door. I have put my faith in Him. I have no idea on my own. I know that He lives and accept His word as truth over all men.
These verse just tell a tiny bit about what happens when you put your faith in God. The result of the new birth.
2 Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
1 Cor 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Cor 2:9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
His spirit come to live within us from the time we receive Christ.
Sorry I'm preaching. I'm telling you what facts I use in my own logic. I do also want to say this, He said he didn't come after the 'good' people any more than a doctor makes a house call on the well. He is a savior and he came to all the people that are hopeless sinners; a mess; can't live right. So those of us that say we are 'saved' are really saying I'm a mess but I'm His anyway. It isn't bragging. :)
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One could try (charitably) say it's just quibbling about semantics. It really isn't. The reason: When believers blur the line between what they know and what they believe may also be true, Pandora's box springs open. Gays lose basic human rights. Abortion clinics need off duty cops to protect access. The line between church and state gets blurred by prayer in the classroom, Commandments in the courtroom, creches at City Hall, and so on.
He now births His new resurrected life into every creation that decides to want Him. At that moment, you become a child & are given a mind capable of knowing and understanding (little by little) what God is doing and what He has written because the new life in you is real.
Doesn't this view paint God as a somewhat vain creature, more interested in supplicants than justice?
Sorry I'm preaching. I'm telling you what facts I use in my own logic.
Preaching doesn't bother me. That said, logic precludes prematurely identifying beliefs as facts. A thing can be both, of course. Einstein could have a theory based mostly on mathematics. He could have a lot of faith that his theory was correct. Only astronomical observations could ultimately demonstrate that his belief/theory was in fact "true." His faith demonstrated only that he believed the theory to be true.
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Doesn't this view paint God as a somewhat vain creature, more interested in supplicants than justice?
Me; No. As a human would you like to have a puppet or another human as a child? It makes sense that He wants something more comprable to Himself.
It's unique that He wants those that choose to be His. I like it that way. And then He raises us, the same as we raise our own children.
That said, logic precludes prematurely identifying beliefs as facts.
Me. I didn't make it clear. My point was saying to you that when Christ rebirths us we are different. Something actually comes into us and we discern His truth, hear His word in a new way. I am saying we have facts that you don't have. We use those facts in our logic.
But it only makes sense that people that haven't experienced the new birth will think it our imagination.
The thing that happened to me the first night I never mentioned to anyone for 15 years. It didn't seem necessary. it was 2 things. Him removing the weight of all sin; and He Himself coming in and showing me something. But Christ is different with each person. It is personal.
I don't think I've ever told a non Christian (if you are or aren't) that before because it seems foolishness to them. I don't care tonight. I was there :) I just want you to consider that there are facts available to some that confirm logic that are not available to all.
He said you must choose Him by faith. That's His choice to make. He has a reason to require you to step out in faith. Even if you don't have any faith in a doctor, by getting up on his operating table and allowing them to put the mask on you, you have enabled the doctor to heal you. Although you were filled with doubt, climbing up on the table was an act of faith & resulted in the work being done.
Even if one doubts, he can call out to God. Open the Bible to Romans or Galatians and start reading trusting God to give him sight.
You don't need to respond :) My lips are sealed Ha ha ha. Not!
It is just important to me for you to know
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Respectfully, I just don't think that's true. Again, you are confusing belief/faith with facts/truth. You can believe with all your heart that every word in the edition of the Bible you read is true, if you so choose. No problem. Tell me you "know" the Bible is true, I'll have to tell you I think you "know" nothing of the sort. It's more than semantics.
But it only makes sense that people that haven't experienced the new birth will think it our imagination.
You said that before. I don't see where "imagination" comes into it. Again, it's about belief/faith, not truth, facts, imagination, hallucination. You believe certain things to be true that no man can know to be true. If God created everything, then he created our ability to reason. Say you accept certain things on faith, that you "believe" certain things, and only a fool will try to deny you that.
Him removing the weight of all sin
I think that is unlikely, but it doesn't bother me at all that you believe it. People find comfort where they can. As long as they do no injury to others, who is harmed by any article of faith?
I just want you to consider that there are facts available to some that confirm logic that are not available to all.
I fear I'll never be able to accept confusing truth with belief. You should think about why you choose to use inappropriate language to proclaim your faith.
He said you must choose Him by faith.
That's what the Bible says. The Bible was written, edited, and re-edited by men. I suspect, knowing human nature, that anything which didn't fit the desired picture was excluded. I suspect that contradictions were reconciled.
He has a reason to require you to step out in faith.
I "judge" people by their conduct, their specific behavior towards others. If I'm wise enough to do that, I suspect the Creator would be as well. Salvation by faith alone strikes me as an all too human preference for the easy, painless way. Human beings love a free meal.
Even if one doubts, he can call out to God.
I'm sure there were many believers in foxholes, even if only until the danger passed.
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I don't think that's true. That's not what I think, and I wouldn't say it's what Dave suggests in his first two comments (I haven't read his others yet, maybe they suggest something different). Faith is assuming something is true even though the tangible evidence appears to be inadequate to incontrovertibly demonstrate that it's true. I have faith that my wife has never cheated. I can't know that she hasn't. People place and misplace faith as they choose. There is no problem until they try to sell faith at fact prices.
we were changed that day
I'm sure that "faith" can transform. At the same time, I've witnessed the actual behavior of many who claimed to have been transformed by answering an altar call. Conduct can be truly transformed by actual acceptance of one simple principle: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I'm sure some people are changed at the altar; others aren't but claim they are; others are but relapse into their sinful ways; etc. etc.
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I liked each of your comments, agreed with most of what you said.
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I thought this discussion faded into oblivion. I'm glad to see somebody read it.
It was clear to me that Glome needed to frame her entire world within a Christian context within her understanding of Christian doctrine and dogma. Stepping outside that context makes her very uncomfortable, she has no moorings to work from if it "can't be found in the bible".
As she said "we think very differently".
I have never been comfortable having others tell me how to think or what to believe, having others frame my worldview for me, but then again that is just me, cranky and independent. Others are quite comfortable with having a church / preacher define their moral and ethical standards for them. They can manage their lives quite well with a prepackaged ideal to guide them, clear easy to understand definitions of right and wrong from which all of life's experiences can be measured. Without judging from my perspective I can see how that could work for some.
If all parties realize that we each satisfy our own needs our own way, that my way is not superior to any other in any regard except as it applies to me, then people of different beliefs can coexist in peace, respecting the sanctity in each other's faith system. Unfortunately it is difficult for most people to attain that level of self awareness and enlightenment. It is far more common and far easier to rely upon a more fundamentalist interpretations that invariably casts people as agents of good or evil, the saved and the cursed, conservatives or liberals, etc. Whether consciously intentional or not many people who practice their faith systems do so by creating demons and devils of those who believe differently. Those who are good often feel compelled to bring others into the fold, a proselytizing duty to save everybody around them. That urge to convert others, of course, is highly disrespectful to those who are deeply embedded in a different tradition of faith and it cuts off real communication between people, squelches any opportunity to learn from other perspectives. It's a sure-fire formula for conflict.
I met Glome on a political debate site some years ago. She impressed me then as somebody with conservative views who could still consider listening and learning from those with sensibilities different from her own. I still feel that she doesn't get hostile when openly challenged, but I recognize that she is not about to change her world view either. That's why these "discussions" drop off the radar for years at a time. Neither of us are going to change. Both of us know that, and just leave it at there.
Anyway, thanks for picking up this thread.
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Me. Dave, that's a misunderstanding of what goes on. Once you know Christ everything is different. Sure you learn from older Christians at first but you soon take over and learn yourself. I don't buy anyone's word for anything. I have about 20 versions of translated Bible plus the Greek and Hebrew and maps. It never occurs to me preachers know more than me just because they preach. Of course we do all learn from each other too. But we take it home and research it. So those that really know Him don't swallow pre packaged theology as fact. That's cutting us down a littttle bit too small.
David; "...that my way is not superior to any other in any regard except as it applies to me, then people of different beliefs can coexist in peace, respecting the sanctity in each other's faith system ..."
Me. Ha ha ha. I probably come across thinking I am superior. But it is God who is superior. It is HIS word I am saying is TRUTH. I know nothing in and of myself.
I think it is ridiculous to say all religions are great if they are not. If you stumbled onto the truth of something that would easily allow you to live forever and didn't tell others, what kind of a person would you be? The problem is that since you haven't found it, you are sure no one else has either. You don't know that for sure.
Many religions teach things different than the God of the Bible. Totally opposite. They cannot all be right just because they make people happy or because people think it is rude to disagree in such areas.
If I had not accepted Christ and been born again I would not know which one was right. Now I do. I don't go to others pages and preach to them. I know better than that (unless the article is there for debate) but feel free to state what I know as God's word here. And I welcome all debate. I know it sound idiotic to people until they, themselves begin to call out to God for understanding. Then, the God of the universe actually begins to move on behalf of the one that called out to Him.
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This is one element that is common to all religions and spiritual traditions, though each frame this invocation of will to the universe within different cultural traditions.
You are comfortable with the way that idea is framed within Christianity and find solace and direction in that idea as presented via Christian doctrine. A careful study of other faiths will find the same idea present but framed in different contexts, different contexts of understanding of the sublimation of self and the opening to greater wisdom from a higher source. When you are "having debates" with Buddhists or others are you able to sense this common thread? Do you focus on that and discuss it at length? Can you find other common elements of your faith that you share with them?
It seems to me that conflicts between people of various faiths occur because those involved in their faiths are more focused on the minute details of their own salvation and redemption, looking at the small picture from inside their own worldview, rather than trying to reach out and come to genuine understanding about others within their own worldview. Imposing my worldview on you would be objectionable to you. How do you think it feels in reverse?
Point: My good friend in Spain is a very devout Catholic. Many years ago she met a nice looking young American couple who came to her door and wanted to talk about God and Jesus. Maria was thrilled at the opportunity, invited them into her home and chatted with them. Their Spanish wasn't real good and her English was even worse but they hit it off royally, had a great conversation. It wasn't until later when I saw the literature that they left behind that I pointed out to her that these were Mormons doing their mission work in Spain, a land of heathens who hadn't accepted the teachings of Moroni as received by Joseph Smith. When I informed Maria what they were actually here to do, to bring her the word of truth and light that she apparently had never been exposed to before and therefore hadn't accepted as truth, she was appalled!! She had no idea what had just happened, was utterly dumbfounded that anybody would do that to her. You see, Maria had always supported mission work in China, India and other lands of ignorant heathens who needed to be saved by the Catholic church. Having the situation turned around on her was shocking.
My dear friend, you don't understand what it is like to be somebody other than yourself. If you have found salvation and eternal life via your faith in God and that allows you to live in your life path then I am happy for you. Please realize that your TRUTH is for you to live. Respect others as they also look for their TRUTH and manage their own lives accordingly.
Are there problems with other faiths, internal contraditions and logical holes and leaps? Absolutely!! The problems of other faiths are awfully easy to see if you do not share their faith system. Should you focus on those problems or feel that you have found absolute TRUTH in your own faith system? It's your option of course, but pointing out problems with other people's faith systems while not being able to hear them tell you about the problems they see within your own faith system is a formula for conflict, a conflict that you will be generating. Is that something that Christianity teaches, to raise conflicts with others? I hardly think so.
We think differently, my friend.
I'm not trying to convert you. I want you to understand that I am who I am. I do not have the same needs for redeption and salvation as you have. I should be respected within the context of my own faith. Your faith system seems to drive you to try to change others around you. Your faith system does NOT show respect for others. Be careful.
Dave
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