See this article, which discusses the value of voting (in that case, in presidential elections, but the argument can be adapted more widely
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It says something that apparently the best systems of government and government selection that we can come up with are argued by a significant number of people to be completely pointless.
I resent the implication by idiots who think they understand statistics and miss the entire point of democracy that I'm stupid because I take the effort vote and care who I vote for.
If you want to argue that your own vote is worthless, it's because your opinion is worthless. If you want to argue that my vote is worthless, go fuck yourself.
If it's any consolation to you, I do in fact vote. The point of my argument was not to show that voting was worthless, but to show that there was a problem with the argument for it in terms of utility-even when that utility is altruistically conceived. Other explanations are required.
The benefits (living in a democratic society, as opposed to a non-democratic one) are immense.
And I think one of the benefits, not matter how arcane the electoral system (eg. American Electoral College) is that the expectation that the average person has a say in the government is built into the system. This may get rather tattered at times, but it's there as an ideal.
The thing is, though, that I will get those benefits whether I vote or not. That's part of the calculus of collective goods.
Now, if everyone were going to make the same decision that I do, then my choosing not to vote would entail the election not being held, and the system ceasing to be democratic. But I am not in fact choosing for everyone. I'm only choosing for myself. So if I chose not to vote, I would not in fact be choosing to forgo having a democratic government. And conversely, my choosing to vote is far from a guarantee that the United States will continue to have a democratic government.
beautifully said. I have arguments with friends every election because they feel their vote is worthless or wasted if they live in a 'safe' seat. or because they don't like any of the candidates etc.
I point out the examples I mentioned above, of 'safe' seats that were unexpectedly lost due to people power, and even 'safe' governments that were lost due to protest votes. And if everyone felt like then and didn't bother to vote then nothing would ever change.
I know someone who has refused to enrol and even had to face court. he claims to be a consciencious objector but only because he doesn't like compulsory voting. While I respect his opinion, I think he is fighting the wrong battle.
He needs to decide whether it's the voting or the attendance he objects to.
If he objects to being forced to vote, he's already won, because we have NEVER had to vote. You have to get your name crossed off (and maybe you have to let them hand you the two voting papers, but I don't think so). In any case, once yo have the papers, nobody can force you to write on them.
(It's even possible to avoid the attendance for a variety of reasons. He could even start a religion that objects to attendance and then he can apply for a general postal vote - and then he'll automatically get postal ballots every election from then on. Which he doesn't have to actually vote on, as long as he posts the envelopes back in - with some filling out.)
born overseas to one australian one canadian parent grew up all over the place due to parents working for the UN came to Australia in late high school to live with family became a citizen ONLY to get free university education has refused to enrol to vote ever since has postgrad degrees in philosophy, knows all the arguments but refuses to get his name crossed off or create a religion etc
I resent the implication by idiots who think they understand statistics and miss the entire point of democracy that I'm stupid because I take the effort vote and care who I vote for.
If you want to argue that your own vote is worthless, it's because your opinion is worthless. If you want to argue that my vote is worthless, go fuck yourself.
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The benefits (living in a democratic society, as opposed to a non-democratic one) are immense.
And I think one of the benefits, not matter how arcane the electoral system (eg. American Electoral College) is that the expectation that the average person has a say in the government is built into the system. This may get rather tattered at times, but it's there as an ideal.
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btw are you robert prior in canberra, who will be at maccon in a few weeks? if not, you have the same name as another gamer friend that glen knows :)
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Now, if everyone were going to make the same decision that I do, then my choosing not to vote would entail the election not being held, and the system ceasing to be democratic. But I am not in fact choosing for everyone. I'm only choosing for myself. So if I chose not to vote, I would not in fact be choosing to forgo having a democratic government. And conversely, my choosing to vote is far from a guarantee that the United States will continue to have a democratic government.
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I point out the examples I mentioned above, of 'safe' seats that were unexpectedly lost due to people power, and even 'safe' governments that were lost due to protest votes. And if everyone felt like then and didn't bother to vote then nothing would ever change.
I know someone who has refused to enrol and even had to face court. he claims to be a consciencious objector but only because he doesn't like compulsory voting. While I respect his opinion, I think he is fighting the wrong battle.
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We have compulsory attendance.
He needs to decide whether it's the voting or the attendance he objects to.
If he objects to being forced to vote, he's already won, because we have NEVER had to vote. You have to get your name crossed off (and maybe you have to let them hand you the two voting papers, but I don't think so). In any case, once yo have the papers, nobody can force you to write on them.
(It's even possible to avoid the attendance for a variety of reasons. He could even start a religion that objects to attendance and then he can apply for a general postal vote - and then he'll automatically get postal ballots every election from then on. Which he doesn't have to actually vote on, as long as he posts the envelopes back in - with some filling out.)
Reply
born overseas to one australian one canadian parent
grew up all over the place due to parents working for the UN
came to Australia in late high school to live with family
became a citizen ONLY to get free university education
has refused to enrol to vote ever since
has postgrad degrees in philosophy, knows all the arguments but refuses to get his name crossed off or create a religion etc
Reply
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