This post is for any threads that you wish to continue on from the prompt post 6 & 7 they are getting long, or discussing off-topic conversation. All meme rules apply.
Prompt/Fanfic Trope DiscussionmannadisanicolaFebruary 10 2012, 03:31:18 UTC
So this prompt made me think of something that I hadn't realized bothered me as much as it does until now and I need to talk about it or I'll just end up passive-aggressively filling the prompt in a way that would make the OP pissed off and that would be worse for everyone. I brought it here pre-emptively because it feels like a hot enough topic to cause wank and I'd prefer to keep it off the main meme and not ruin everyone's day with a locked prompt, just in case someone earnest does fill or want to fill it.
The prompt in question contains a trope I've seen enough times to be note-worthy in fanfic, usually in Puckurt fics (or maybe just one Puckurt fic that's really sticking out in my subconscious without sharing what its title is with the rest of my brain), about how Jock A isn't really all that bad because he shows he's ostensibly above homophobia by revealing that he actually tormented Kurt for years out of resentment towards Kurt's arrogance rather than hatred towards Kurt's sexuality.
Let's break it down.
A) Is there a way this isn't victim-blaming? Especially since...
B) Ninety percent of Kurt's arrogance (if not one-hundred percent where his bullies are concerned) is implied to be a defense mechanism because *SURPRISE* he's bullied for being gay, making it kind of a chicken-and-egg thing.
C) So every other instance of Jock A being a homophobe in canon just goes *poof*? Every time he warned Finn that joining glee would make him gay or used gay as an insult, every time some other guy was driven to abuse or insult Kurt because of Jock A's apparent adherence to heteronormatively, it was all just a misunderstanding that could have been avoided if he'd just said, "But when I say 'gay', I really mean 'infuriatingly arrogant'! You know, like the kids do these days!"?
Re: Prompt/Fanfic Trope DiscussionmannadisanicolaFebruary 10 2012, 04:42:00 UTC
I think this question is complicated and can be taken in many different ways, with none of them being right or wrong.
Maybe if we had more information about when and how the bullying started, because we can be pretty sure it didn't just start in the pilot episode. There's an interview around that Ryan Murphy did where he said Puck was the mastermind/leader of the bullying but he never gave a reason. There's a million reasons why kids bully other kids.
I definitely agree with C. Jock A making homophobic remarks like that shouldn't be ignored but a lot of times it is, especially when it's revealed that Jock A is gay too. But that happens a lot on the show and in fiction. Santana and Sebastian insult Kurt all the time and no one ever says anything because they're gay too and 'it's not homophobic that way'.
Re: Prompt/Fanfic Trope DiscussionmannadisanicolaFebruary 10 2012, 05:12:59 UTC
As the OP of that prompt, I agree with you entirely.
Honestly, I just had the quote pop into my head and wanted to prompt it, but it's definitely victim-blaming. I probably should have warned for that, but "victim blaming" isn't on the list of require trigger warnings and I didn't think to.
I totally agree with where you're coming for, and now that I look at it, the prompt looks Kurt-bashing, when I didn't intend it to be. It was more supposed expose the fact that we all mis-imagine one another based on our own selves and baggage.
I should have included more info in the prompt than just the quote, because now I see that it doesn't stand alone as well as I thought it did this morning.
~
Everything you say is true. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. People do think things like this. There are people who believe Kurt deserves his bullying, not because he's gay, but because he's kind of a jerk sometimes. And yes, his bitchiness is a form of self-defense, but it's still there.
Humans are flawed and sometimes really awful. WE live in a culture that's rife with victim blaming.
I didn't prompt it because I believed the statement was right or healthy or okay because it's not. That time of thinking isn't right, but it still happens.
I prompted it because I thought it was a believable scenario, not because I thought it was moral or right.
Re: Prompt/Fanfic Trope DiscussionmannadisanicolaFebruary 10 2012, 11:31:53 UTC
*Phew*
Thank you so much for responding to that rationally, especially after I, well, didn't (apparently, victim-blaming and logical fallacies are some of my triggers, who knew? :P (I'm really sorry about the explosion; human beings are so weird with what sets us off and I'd been having a stressful week anyway)).
It does make me feel a lot better that Jock A's mindset is supposed to be contradictory and kind of revisionist in his own favor and realistic rather than sensible because, unfortunately, the two don't always overlap. The fact that his argument is supposed to be flawed (and what was I expecting from a McKinley jock, exactly, Socrates?) quells the desire to write Kurt just snapping and screaming back things like, "Maybe I assume people hate me for being gay because people don't give me the luxury of being seen as a whole person!"
If nothing else, I hope my meltdown and your response helps to provide some additional insight for a potential filler into what you're looking for. Hope you get a fill. Glad this didn't end in bloodshed! :D
Re: Prompt/Fanfic Trope DiscussionmannadisanicolaMay 29 2012, 01:47:20 UTC
late opinion is very late, but...yes? I see the merit in such a prompt. When you're harassed for something like Kurt is, it's easy to think that's the only reason someone has a problem with you, without looking into any other clashes you might have. Does it make it ok for Jock A to hassle kurt? Does kurt deserve it? no, but ok- when Rachel is yelled at or whatever for being a selfish diva, it's her personality rubbing someone the wrong way, ok sure, and she's aware. With kurt even in canon it's homophobia full stop- when it's just as likely that someone dislikes him for the same reasons they dislike rachel, and this is an exploration of that. That might be the point of contention here; you interpret arrogance/manipulation/etc from kurt as an excusable defense mechanism while others interpret it as natural traits that he would display with or without the struggles he's had or inexcusable regardless- and they don't like it. To me, bringing it back to him being gay is like defining him only by being gay.
As for C), I don't get how that factors in. As in: the prompt is a closed instance where one jock who presumably used to slushie/dump him is 'clarifying'. So, he may have always bullied kurt, but never any acts of homophobia- I could see it playing out like: Jock A throws slushie at Kurt regularly. Kurt assumes it homophobia, Jock A goes nope I just dislike you. Jock A is still a douche, but nothing goes poof cause there was nothing to go poof, and op didn't mention anything about those canon incidents that *are* homophobic. Now if op set it up as a blanket excuse for all that the jocks have done to him, that would be a different story.
The prompt in question contains a trope I've seen enough times to be note-worthy in fanfic, usually in Puckurt fics (or maybe just one Puckurt fic that's really sticking out in my subconscious without sharing what its title is with the rest of my brain), about how Jock A isn't really all that bad because he shows he's ostensibly above homophobia by revealing that he actually tormented Kurt for years out of resentment towards Kurt's arrogance rather than hatred towards Kurt's sexuality.
Let's break it down.
A) Is there a way this isn't victim-blaming? Especially since...
B) Ninety percent of Kurt's arrogance (if not one-hundred percent where his bullies are concerned) is implied to be a defense mechanism because *SURPRISE* he's bullied for being gay, making it kind of a chicken-and-egg thing.
C) So every other instance of Jock A being a homophobe in canon just goes *poof*? Every time he warned Finn that joining glee would make him gay or used gay as an insult, every time some other guy was driven to abuse or insult Kurt because of Jock A's apparent adherence to heteronormatively, it was all just a misunderstanding that could have been avoided if he'd just said, "But when I say 'gay', I really mean 'infuriatingly arrogant'! You know, like the kids do these days!"?
...
This is not going to make me many friends.
Reply
Maybe if we had more information about when and how the bullying started, because we can be pretty sure it didn't just start in the pilot episode. There's an interview around that Ryan Murphy did where he said Puck was the mastermind/leader of the bullying but he never gave a reason. There's a million reasons why kids bully other kids.
I definitely agree with C. Jock A making homophobic remarks like that shouldn't be ignored but a lot of times it is, especially when it's revealed that Jock A is gay too. But that happens a lot on the show and in fiction. Santana and Sebastian insult Kurt all the time and no one ever says anything because they're gay too and 'it's not homophobic that way'.
Reply
Honestly, I just had the quote pop into my head and wanted to prompt it, but it's definitely victim-blaming. I probably should have warned for that, but "victim blaming" isn't on the list of require trigger warnings and I didn't think to.
I totally agree with where you're coming for, and now that I look at it, the prompt looks Kurt-bashing, when I didn't intend it to be. It was more supposed expose the fact that we all mis-imagine one another based on our own selves and baggage.
I should have included more info in the prompt than just the quote, because now I see that it doesn't stand alone as well as I thought it did this morning.
~
Everything you say is true. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. People do think things like this. There are people who believe Kurt deserves his bullying, not because he's gay, but because he's kind of a jerk sometimes. And yes, his bitchiness is a form of self-defense, but it's still there.
Humans are flawed and sometimes really awful. WE live in a culture that's rife with victim blaming.
I didn't prompt it because I believed the statement was right or healthy or okay because it's not. That time of thinking isn't right, but it still happens.
I prompted it because I thought it was a believable scenario, not because I thought it was moral or right.
I hope that makes sense?
Reply
Thank you so much for responding to that rationally, especially after I, well, didn't (apparently, victim-blaming and logical fallacies are some of my triggers, who knew? :P (I'm really sorry about the explosion; human beings are so weird with what sets us off and I'd been having a stressful week anyway)).
It does make me feel a lot better that Jock A's mindset is supposed to be contradictory and kind of revisionist in his own favor and realistic rather than sensible because, unfortunately, the two don't always overlap. The fact that his argument is supposed to be flawed (and what was I expecting from a McKinley jock, exactly, Socrates?) quells the desire to write Kurt just snapping and screaming back things like, "Maybe I assume people hate me for being gay because people don't give me the luxury of being seen as a whole person!"
If nothing else, I hope my meltdown and your response helps to provide some additional insight for a potential filler into what you're looking for. Hope you get a fill. Glad this didn't end in bloodshed! :D
Reply
As for C), I don't get how that factors in. As in: the prompt is a closed instance where one jock who presumably used to slushie/dump him is 'clarifying'. So, he may have always bullied kurt, but never any acts of homophobia- I could see it playing out like: Jock A throws slushie at Kurt regularly. Kurt assumes it homophobia, Jock A goes nope I just dislike you. Jock A is still a douche, but nothing goes poof cause there was nothing to go poof, and op didn't mention anything about those canon incidents that *are* homophobic.
Now if op set it up as a blanket excuse for all that the jocks have done to him, that would be a different story.
Reply
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