On the subject of the Nice Guy debate
Been reading a lot on this topic in other people's journals today and has made me ponder. The start of all this can be found here. And further on the topic from mystae here.
After reading the rant sited above I can definitely say it got my mental gears turning. Anytime I see a post about a girl appearing to attack nice guys, my walls go up and I get very defensive. I've been a advocate for the nice guys for as long as I can remember, and feeling I am one (or at least try to be), I usually get into super rant mode and start the verbal avalanche of a counterattack. This time that is not the case, this time I feel the same way on a lot of points.
I feel that divalion and others do bring up some very intriguing and valid points. I also feel they covered them well enough, so I won't repeat them here. Want I will be doing is offering up some of my own views on some of the points made.
Okay, the first thing you gotta remember about the difference between the nice guy and the assholes is that generally, yes, the nice guys have faced much MUCH more rejection in their lives than the assholes. This is part of what makes a vicious cycle for the because "girls like confidence, that's why they like assholes...assholes are confident about themselves." Well the nice guys usually don't take a lot of initiative and have little confidence BECAUSE they've been rejected so often. You beat an animal enough times, he's afraid to approach people, hell sometimes he'll become very violent.
Which brings me to bitterness. I agree that bitterness is a bad thing, and does not help make one look very charming and attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex. However, bitterness doesn't come from nowhere. Yes, some emotionally unstable people will be bitter even if the person that hurt them tried their best to observe the person they hurt's feelings, but most people become bitter because they have the same things break them down over and over again. I myself was rather bitter for a long time. I won't hide that fact. I was a proud card-holding member of the Bitter Men of America Club. Does this mean I wanted to be molly-coddled and mothered? No, but I did want someone to understand and maybe let me know that it wasn't all my fault, that I wasn't a leper and could be wanted by someone. My bitterness was pretty focused and only reared it's ugly Lovecraftian bestial head every once in a while. I agree that it is wrong and wholly unhealthy to carry a chip on your shoulder 24/7. If you are, then my friend your bitter fortress is impregnable, and no one will ever "understand you" as you have given them no opening to do so.
Onto the guys being friends with girls angle. Okay, let me go ahead and shatter a myth for you girls. With rare exception, if a guy is friends with you, he has thought of dating you. Well, unless he's gay. Now before everyone gets all in a tizzy, this isn't always a malicious thing. What it means is that if a guy finds a girl he gets along with a lot, he will consider her a potential partner, mate, significant other, etc. Now, while this is on a guys mind, it doesn't mean he has to be an moronic dick about it. Most sane and rational guys will assess the situation in their own mind and realize that you are a friend, nothing more, and be completely cool with that. The thought has been there, though, if you don't believe me approach him with the idea of hooking up. Most guys will say yes, mind you the good and nice guys out there will make damn sure that you realize what you just asked and do everything within thier power to make sure it does nothing to endanger your friendship, because they know that the friendship is important and not something to be trifled with. There are plenty of men out there who can control their sex drive, just remember, you are still dealing with a male sex drive. Now, that being said, there are some skeezy guys out there that will pretend to be a friend so he can get in your pants. These chaps do ALL their thinking with the wrong head. You can usually tell because they ALWAYS try and make conversations of a sexual nature and try and put you in situations where they can. Funny thing is, this is usually an Asshole, not nice guy, trait...which makes me think that this whole nice guy vs. Nice Guy debate is really just about something all together different and much much more frightening...
The Shy Damaged Asshole.
Now, lets talk about the issue of a guy wanting a girl who's taken. Okay, first, let's be fair girls...this is hardly a one-sided situation. Girls are just as guilty as guys at coveting someone else's significant other. The primary difference here is men approach this situation in a much more direct and obvious way, while you girls go the plotting, nefarious, and lets be honest sometimes downright evil approach. But enough of that...sorry to digress, I do feel the need to defend us guys on occasion. Okay, I'll admit that on many occasions if there's a girl I like who's taken I'll talk about taking her away from said guy. However, I only say that if I don't know the guy from Adam. If I know the guy it changes EVERYTHING...especially if he's a good and decent guy and makes the girls happy. If the guy IS actually an asshole then yes, this is when my bitterness would come out. That and yeah guys talk about "stealing" a girl from her boy, but in the same way someone talks about shooting their boss. It's something you say, not something you actually DO, if you do there's something wrong with you. I would say that this would be another case for changing the term Nice Guy to Shy Damaged Asshole, but I have met some cases that the original term applies. There are some guys out there who feel the need to "rescue" a girl they like from her boyfriend, because they are obviously better for them than "that guy." These guys can be really bad. Remember when I said girls use plotting and nefarious tactics...well, some guys do it too, it's rarer, but it happens. These poor guys build up in their own minds how your boyfriend is the antichrist, even if he hasn't done a damn thing wrong. If you guy is an Asshole, then it will be obvious, and yes real nice guys will hate to see girls with them. This is part of what drives nice guys mad, when we have to listen how your boyfriend treats you like shit, and we're the ones you'll talk to but never be with. Oh and if you ever utter the phrase "But he's so different when we're alone" stop, repeat what you just said to yourself slowly, realize the horseshit of that statement, and break up with the guy. Why should he only be nice to you when you're alone? What, is he ashamed to show he cares and considers you a human being in front of other people? Sorry...back to the matter at hand, nice guy vs. Nice Guys and listening. Now the difference is, a nice guy will be there to listen...you'll bring your problems to him. A "Nice Guy" will try and MAKE you tell him your boyfriend is treating you like shit, so he feels justified. A guy honestly trying to out and out steal a girl from another guy make me absolutley livid. I can spot the difference between flirting and the attempt to steal, as can most everyone else.
One person pointed out this is particular prevalent in the LARPing crowd. I've noticed it too, and can see how it can be a turn-off to the whole experience of the game. I've seen in various forms and some worse than others. Worst case scenario is you get what I like to call the "incestuous geek dating circle" where the people in the game end up switching boyfriends/girlfriends until everyone is everyone else's ex. (And people wonder why LARPs breed drama) Now, part of this problem is ratio, i.e. more guys than girls, compounded on by the fact that a lot of the girls who do play first started because they came with their boyfriend.
Two things that might help this out:
First- Okay guys, when new girls show up to the game, they are NOT open season, ESPECIALLY if they came with a guy.
Second- Okay girls, you like this game? Turned out to be really fun, right? Okay good...now BRING SOME FRIENDS! The more of you out there, the less likely you'll have a bunch of LARPer boys drooling and following you around, it's all about numbers.
In closing, let me say a few in defense of guys in general, particularly nice guys.
Ladies, please remember that it IS a lot harder out there for guy than you like to think. When it comes to the dating game, at least at the beginning, we've got to do all the work, and it's a hard job. We have to do the approaching, we have to be the ones to ask you out. It's a LOT of pressure. A lot of really good-hearted guys either become bitter and complain more than try, or seem weird because they have no clue how the game is played. Imagine the show being on the other foot, imagine if you had to be the ones to have to do all the approaching, have perfect wit and always be the moniker of charm, to be absolutley perfect and make all the right moves, without error or exception. It's hard for the nice guys, we have a disadvantage to the assholes, we're honest. Assholes win at the game because they lie, it's easy to be perfect when you make it all up. So yeah, there are some Nice Guys out there who I really think are more Shy Damaged Assholes, who have all the wrong intentions and whose past experiences have made them pretty crazy. Just remember that there are some nice guy out there who are really clumsy and awkward when it comes to trying to date a girl, they don't know what to do, and no one is really helping a lot of them.
And if I have ever come off as a Nice Guy rather than a real nice guy, my extreme apologies. I have never had malicious intent towards any girl I've had interest in.
Damn, I don't think I've ever written a post that long...whew.
After reading the rant sited above I can definitely say it got my mental gears turning. Anytime I see a post about a girl appearing to attack nice guys, my walls go up and I get very defensive. I've been a advocate for the nice guys for as long as I can remember, and feeling I am one (or at least try to be), I usually get into super rant mode and start the verbal avalanche of a counterattack. This time that is not the case, this time I feel the same way on a lot of points.
I feel that divalion and others do bring up some very intriguing and valid points. I also feel they covered them well enough, so I won't repeat them here. Want I will be doing is offering up some of my own views on some of the points made.
Okay, the first thing you gotta remember about the difference between the nice guy and the assholes is that generally, yes, the nice guys have faced much MUCH more rejection in their lives than the assholes. This is part of what makes a vicious cycle for the because "girls like confidence, that's why they like assholes...assholes are confident about themselves." Well the nice guys usually don't take a lot of initiative and have little confidence BECAUSE they've been rejected so often. You beat an animal enough times, he's afraid to approach people, hell sometimes he'll become very violent.
Which brings me to bitterness. I agree that bitterness is a bad thing, and does not help make one look very charming and attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex. However, bitterness doesn't come from nowhere. Yes, some emotionally unstable people will be bitter even if the person that hurt them tried their best to observe the person they hurt's feelings, but most people become bitter because they have the same things break them down over and over again. I myself was rather bitter for a long time. I won't hide that fact. I was a proud card-holding member of the Bitter Men of America Club. Does this mean I wanted to be molly-coddled and mothered? No, but I did want someone to understand and maybe let me know that it wasn't all my fault, that I wasn't a leper and could be wanted by someone. My bitterness was pretty focused and only reared it's ugly Lovecraftian bestial head every once in a while. I agree that it is wrong and wholly unhealthy to carry a chip on your shoulder 24/7. If you are, then my friend your bitter fortress is impregnable, and no one will ever "understand you" as you have given them no opening to do so.
Onto the guys being friends with girls angle. Okay, let me go ahead and shatter a myth for you girls. With rare exception, if a guy is friends with you, he has thought of dating you. Well, unless he's gay. Now before everyone gets all in a tizzy, this isn't always a malicious thing. What it means is that if a guy finds a girl he gets along with a lot, he will consider her a potential partner, mate, significant other, etc. Now, while this is on a guys mind, it doesn't mean he has to be an moronic dick about it. Most sane and rational guys will assess the situation in their own mind and realize that you are a friend, nothing more, and be completely cool with that. The thought has been there, though, if you don't believe me approach him with the idea of hooking up. Most guys will say yes, mind you the good and nice guys out there will make damn sure that you realize what you just asked and do everything within thier power to make sure it does nothing to endanger your friendship, because they know that the friendship is important and not something to be trifled with. There are plenty of men out there who can control their sex drive, just remember, you are still dealing with a male sex drive. Now, that being said, there are some skeezy guys out there that will pretend to be a friend so he can get in your pants. These chaps do ALL their thinking with the wrong head. You can usually tell because they ALWAYS try and make conversations of a sexual nature and try and put you in situations where they can. Funny thing is, this is usually an Asshole, not nice guy, trait...which makes me think that this whole nice guy vs. Nice Guy debate is really just about something all together different and much much more frightening...
The Shy Damaged Asshole.
Now, lets talk about the issue of a guy wanting a girl who's taken. Okay, first, let's be fair girls...this is hardly a one-sided situation. Girls are just as guilty as guys at coveting someone else's significant other. The primary difference here is men approach this situation in a much more direct and obvious way, while you girls go the plotting, nefarious, and lets be honest sometimes downright evil approach. But enough of that...sorry to digress, I do feel the need to defend us guys on occasion. Okay, I'll admit that on many occasions if there's a girl I like who's taken I'll talk about taking her away from said guy. However, I only say that if I don't know the guy from Adam. If I know the guy it changes EVERYTHING...especially if he's a good and decent guy and makes the girls happy. If the guy IS actually an asshole then yes, this is when my bitterness would come out. That and yeah guys talk about "stealing" a girl from her boy, but in the same way someone talks about shooting their boss. It's something you say, not something you actually DO, if you do there's something wrong with you. I would say that this would be another case for changing the term Nice Guy to Shy Damaged Asshole, but I have met some cases that the original term applies. There are some guys out there who feel the need to "rescue" a girl they like from her boyfriend, because they are obviously better for them than "that guy." These guys can be really bad. Remember when I said girls use plotting and nefarious tactics...well, some guys do it too, it's rarer, but it happens. These poor guys build up in their own minds how your boyfriend is the antichrist, even if he hasn't done a damn thing wrong. If you guy is an Asshole, then it will be obvious, and yes real nice guys will hate to see girls with them. This is part of what drives nice guys mad, when we have to listen how your boyfriend treats you like shit, and we're the ones you'll talk to but never be with. Oh and if you ever utter the phrase "But he's so different when we're alone" stop, repeat what you just said to yourself slowly, realize the horseshit of that statement, and break up with the guy. Why should he only be nice to you when you're alone? What, is he ashamed to show he cares and considers you a human being in front of other people? Sorry...back to the matter at hand, nice guy vs. Nice Guys and listening. Now the difference is, a nice guy will be there to listen...you'll bring your problems to him. A "Nice Guy" will try and MAKE you tell him your boyfriend is treating you like shit, so he feels justified. A guy honestly trying to out and out steal a girl from another guy make me absolutley livid. I can spot the difference between flirting and the attempt to steal, as can most everyone else.
One person pointed out this is particular prevalent in the LARPing crowd. I've noticed it too, and can see how it can be a turn-off to the whole experience of the game. I've seen in various forms and some worse than others. Worst case scenario is you get what I like to call the "incestuous geek dating circle" where the people in the game end up switching boyfriends/girlfriends until everyone is everyone else's ex. (And people wonder why LARPs breed drama) Now, part of this problem is ratio, i.e. more guys than girls, compounded on by the fact that a lot of the girls who do play first started because they came with their boyfriend.
Two things that might help this out:
First- Okay guys, when new girls show up to the game, they are NOT open season, ESPECIALLY if they came with a guy.
Second- Okay girls, you like this game? Turned out to be really fun, right? Okay good...now BRING SOME FRIENDS! The more of you out there, the less likely you'll have a bunch of LARPer boys drooling and following you around, it's all about numbers.
In closing, let me say a few in defense of guys in general, particularly nice guys.
Ladies, please remember that it IS a lot harder out there for guy than you like to think. When it comes to the dating game, at least at the beginning, we've got to do all the work, and it's a hard job. We have to do the approaching, we have to be the ones to ask you out. It's a LOT of pressure. A lot of really good-hearted guys either become bitter and complain more than try, or seem weird because they have no clue how the game is played. Imagine the show being on the other foot, imagine if you had to be the ones to have to do all the approaching, have perfect wit and always be the moniker of charm, to be absolutley perfect and make all the right moves, without error or exception. It's hard for the nice guys, we have a disadvantage to the assholes, we're honest. Assholes win at the game because they lie, it's easy to be perfect when you make it all up. So yeah, there are some Nice Guys out there who I really think are more Shy Damaged Assholes, who have all the wrong intentions and whose past experiences have made them pretty crazy. Just remember that there are some nice guy out there who are really clumsy and awkward when it comes to trying to date a girl, they don't know what to do, and no one is really helping a lot of them.
And if I have ever come off as a Nice Guy rather than a real nice guy, my extreme apologies. I have never had malicious intent towards any girl I've had interest in.
Damn, I don't think I've ever written a post that long...whew.