About last night

[girliejones]

I feel a need to post a follow up post to what happened yesterday and last night here. The specific comments from the other person were deleted by that person but many people read them as they were being posted and followed the discussion as it happened

Comments

[petermball]

To be fair, it's always gone both ways. Rewind to the days before feminist discorse and, inevitably, there were assertive women who dominated their husbands - genders aren't people, after all. But I think (not to put words in Girliejones' mouth) that what's being talking about is the way things are perceived when certain behaviours are exhibited by different genders, and that's a slightly different kettle of fish.

Because there are slightly different expectations attached to gender, particular as a means of social control. While a man who dominated was regarded once regarded as normal within the social expectations of masculinity of assertiveness, a woman who exhibited such behaviour was frowned upon (and thus we get labels like 'shrew' and 'bitch' that haven't really gone away, just like we still have the idea of the 'henpecked husband' to show that the male half of the equation is similarly regarded as abnormal in his complicity to the situation; reverse the situation and, at worse, the woman would be regarded as overly submissive).

Basically, the *idea* of 'bad behaviour' is subtly different for each gender, and those subtleties have carried through (often unconsciously) to many aspects of contemporary culture. Acknowledging that everyone has pressures in terms of controlling their behaviour is all well and good ('cause, like, we do), but it muddies the waters a little when we're talking about feminist discourse because those social controls aren't necessarily saying the same thing. You *expect* to be treated equally, but for most white guys it's not an expectation that needs considering since 'equality' is essentially their cultural birthright.

[transcendancing]

did you get a chance to see the blog that provoked a fair portion of the angst?

There were 2 posts in particular that were hard hitting, precise and incredible in their resonance with other women.

I can link you if you're interested - though I'm sure I linked to them in my recent post on the subject.

Also, thank you for just getting it. It's not a cookie, today it's just relief that a conversation with you isn't fraught or draining or require a whole lot of work. Because really, so many of them are, even if we try and consciously limit this.

[amandapillar]

Oh yes, I know what you are saying. I was just saying that the expectation to put other peoples' feelings first is a concern for men and women - and it is family dependent (to an extent).

I see what you mean about the expectation to be treated equally when men don't think about it at all.

But after just spending 3 weeks in a society where women have defined roles, I realise how far Australian society has come... (with still more to go).

[girliejones]

I guess what I find unsettling in this comment is the suggestion that because other women have it worse off than me, I don't have the right to complain. Perhaps that's not what you meant but this sort of side argument is often used to derail.

I agree that being murdered because your husband cheated on you and somehow that means you brought shame to the family is a worse position than the one I hold in life. But I don't think that devalues the point I was making.

[amandapillar]

Sorry, that wasn't what I meant at all!

It just shows me how far we've come. And I'm glad for it, and I know we still have a ways to go. The comment was more to show that I feel we are in a good position compared to other areas of the world, but that doesn't mean we're in the right position. Does that make sense?

Being back in a place where men are the 'powerful ones' in the relationship (to quote a 14 year old boy from over there - that's how indoctrined it is), made me angry. But I tried to be tactful in my replies to them. And it showed how cultures really do define gender roles within society.

It got me thinking a lot about this issue, actually.