I enjoyed Levee, but the wank surrounding that episode and Bobby's random attitude shifts spoiled it for me. Too many people who took Sam's hallucinations as utter proof that, no really, Sam was doing the right thing and was on the right path and Dean was being an idiot for daring to think him in the wrong - it got tiring. I sort of wanted to smack Dean for leaving Sam alone, for that matter.
Pretty sure we're going to get some input on Sam's feelings for Dean soon, and hopefully even see something where Dean figures out what he's feeling himself. I keep seeing posts from people declaring that Dean's just in denial and he's fooling no one, but I think the situation is a lot more complex than that. While it's not really fair to Sam, I think Dean's relating his remaining horror about Hell and his terror in S3 (and perhaps even the issues with Sam's "destiny" in S2 and John's disappearance and death in S1) with Sam now and so of course it's going to feel like a weight lifted to no longer have to deal with all of that. And that's a lot more difficult to work through than a petulant "I'm just FINE without him!" sour grapes sort of attitude.
Eurgh, Deadbeat Daddy syndrome. I think the remaining absentee father issues could have handled it quite nicely, but I suspect that a bar wouldn't have appealed to the 12 year old boy mentality that many of the writers have in nearly the same way as a whorehouse did.
I dunno. There's been awful lot of wank around this episode as well but that's not my issue with it. Mostly it's just how boring certain scenes were to me.
Pretty sure we're going to get some input on Sam's feelings for Dean soon, and hopefully even see something where Dean figures out what he's feeling himself. I keep seeing posts from people declaring that Dean's just in denial and he's fooling no one, but I think the situation is a lot more complex than that. While it's not really fair to Sam, I think Dean's relating his remaining horror about Hell and his terror in S3 (and perhaps even the issues with Sam's "destiny" in S2 and John's disappearance and death in S1) with Sam now and so of course it's going to feel like a weight lifted to no longer have to deal with all of that. And that's a lot more difficult to work through than a petulant "I'm just FINE without him!" sour grapes sort of attitude. Yeah I don't think Dean is just in denial. That scene was way more complex than that. I think there was a substantial amount of truth in his declaration but that doesn't mean that he's stopped loving or missing his brother. These characters are capable of having more than one emotion at a time, contradictory though they may be. :)
Dean spent his whole life being told that his only value to the family was in how well he took care of Sam and what he could do for his family. Hell John's final words to him were in essence, that he was proud of him for taking care of the family without complaint, oh and btw, make sure Sammy doesn't go evil otherwise you're gonna have to kill him. That is a huge burden and one that isn't Sam's fault.
But Sam also told Dean, I need you kill me if I go evol, which is Sam's fault and also a huge burden. He also made it clear all through season 3, that he needed Dean to be strong act like his big brother. He made it clear he needed Dean to be on board with his plans otherwise Dean was letting him down. He pretty much did the same thing all through season 4, from my interpretation. Then you had the lying, the sneaking around the statements of Dean's weakness and stupidity, and Bobby laying it on thick that it's Dean's responsibility to save Sam from himself and now Cas and Zach pointing out that it was Dean's failure to stop Sam that broke the world. I honestly don't see how Dean could not see Sam as a burden at this point.
I think right now, the pendulum has swung the other way for Dean. Before he clung to Sam tightly enough that it was probably a little suffocating to Sam but now he's running in the opposite direction and there is a certain freedom to just letting Sam go. He also had a tendency to be completely blind to Sam's flaws before but now, they're all he can see. It's a perfectly natural reaction to a big break up. But I suspect Dean will swing back to the middle and judging by spoilers, its going to happen by the end of this week's episode.
I think once the boys are back together, there will be a brief honeymoon period and then some of the same issues that have plagued them for four years, will re-emerge. But this time they will actually try to deal with some of them. At least I hope so. :)
Some spoilers for 5x04ginzaiSeptember 28 2009, 14:55:02 UTC
Yeah I don't think Dean is just in denial. That scene was way more complex than that. I think there was a substantial amount of truth in his declaration but that doesn't mean that he's stopped loving or missing his brother. These characters are capable of having more than one emotion at a time, contradictory though they may be. :)
Exactly! That's why I get so annoyed when people are all "oh, he's just in denial! He'll come around!" because while I do think Dean is trying to subsume how much he misses his brother, his anger is a real and valid emotion, as is his resentment and his relief at not having to deal withhis family any more.
Yeah, John's words have a touch of bitter irony to them. "I've always put too much on you and I'm sorry! Oh yeah, btw, your baby brother who you love and whose needs I've taught you to put well above your own might go evil and if he does, you have to kill him. BRB, dying now!" HONESTLY.
I agree, Dean has reasons to be resentful of Sam beyond just S4 and the fact that Sam was quite obviously the preferred child. In S3, Sam kept asking him to invalidate his deal, which could have resulted in Sam's death which really would have been Dean's fault. Sam wanted him to play Russian Roulette with Sam's life and then got pissy when he refused. That had to be especially grating because there's NOTHING saying that Sam couldn't have gone off to do research on his own. Dean couldn't break the deal - Sam could. The only time Sam has angered me as much as he did in 4x14 with the "boo hoo" speech was when he got on his soap box and pretentiously railed on Dean for not being able to be saved if he won't save himself. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DEAL.
I agree - Sam is a burden right now. I think Sam's even subconsciously acknowledged that with his "you can't trust me when I don't trust myself" line. Dean has too many things on his plate right now and he's putting the world above his brother which means he hasn't got the time to focus on how to put Sam back together. I think Dean should have sent Sam back to Bobby's rather than just letting him go off on his own, personally, or at least suggested to Sam (or Bobby) that it might be a good idea but he's doing exactly what Sam has been asking him to do since S1: trust in Sam's judgment and let him go his own way.
(Seriously, why didn't anyone think to send Sam to Bobby's? Bobby could use the help right now, Sam could do research without being tempted by demons, he could have still been contributing! It drives me crazy.)
The spoilers make me nervous. I'm quite worried that the moral of 5x04 will be that Dean needs to get off his high horse and reconcile with his brother for the good of the world and frankly that invalidates Dean's move towards independence. That would make going back to Sam a necessity rather than a desire and Dean's had enough with being forced into taking care of his brother. The man has had to do it since he was four with the only break he got from his duty being a few years with his father (who abandoned him after singing Sam's graces to random people to such an extent that they remembered years after the fact - see Phantom Traveler) and his forty years in Hell. Let's have less being needed and more being wanted, eh?
I think once they get back together, things will still be rocky for a while. I expect that 5x04 will be the nadir in their relationship, with things slowly starting to come back together afterward. Which is almost a storytelling mistake, IMHO; I'd rather that they fell apart completely after the world was saved so that they could have a few years apart and then come back together again and slowly work out their differences. Right now, they're on such a deadline that I'm not sure how they'll keep from rushing through it. And let's face it - dealing with the long term consequences has never been one of Supernatural's saving points.
Re: Some spoilers for 5x04mangokulfiSeptember 28 2009, 21:04:46 UTC
Yeah I was curious about Sam not going to Bobby's. But I guess from a character stand-point, it makes sense since Sam tends to go off by himself to lick his wounds.
Also it looks like they wanted a SamSex episode (though that ended up on the cutting room floor) and I guess that wouldn't have been possible if he was at Bobby's. Although why they thought Sam would be in any kind of headspace to be having casual sex (especially when he's having visions of Jessica) is totally beyond me. It's just kind of bizarre and I'm really glad wiser heads prevailed.
I suspect it has something to do with them attempting to give Sam someone sympathetic to talk to, which is what Cas has become for Dean. But man, they just cannot seem to get a decent 20-something actress or even write a decent 20-something female character, if their life depended on it.
The spoilers make me nervous. I'm quite worried that the moral of 5x04 will be that Dean needs to get off his high horse and reconcile with his brother for the good of the world and frankly that invalidates Dean's move towards independence. That would make going back to Sam a necessity rather than a desire and Dean's had enough with being forced into taking care of his brother. The man has had to do it since he was four with the only break he got from his duty being a few years with his father (who abandoned him after singing Sam's graces to random people to such an extent that they remembered years after the fact - see Phantom Traveler) and his forty years in Hell. Let's have less being needed and more being wanted, eh?
Hehe. I'm not worried about Dean's big lesson learned in 504 because I'm pretty much reconciled to the fact that it is going to be one big get-back-to-your-family-dumbass smackdown. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy what looks like one of the best-looing epis in terms of family values and the two Deans and just ignore the rest. The only thing that gives me a tiny bit of hope is that Edlund is writing this one and he does seem to appreciate Dean in a way that none of the other writers do, including Kripke. Hopefully the smack-down will be gentle and come across more as Dean feels that with the world and his brother's immortal soul at stake, he has to be the bigger man and forgive if not forget. Rather than Dean was meeeeeen to Sam and brought about the end of the world. Of course no matter what, that's how certain factions of this fandom are going to interpret it anyway. Oh well.
Re: Some spoilers for 5x04ginzaiSeptember 29 2009, 00:39:49 UTC
Although why they thought Sam would be in any kind of headspace to be having casual sex (especially when he's having visions of Jessica) is totally beyond me.
You might have something to that. It also would have been harder to have the hunters attack him at Bobby's and that would have denied him the opportunity to reject the demon blood. Though they could have worked it as Sam working at a bar in Bobby's home town, I suppose it might have come across as contrived and ultra convenient. Well. Not that it sort of didn't regardless, but it would have been worse had it been Bobby's town.
And SO AGREED on the issue of Sam having sex while remembering Jess! Seriously, how could anyone have thought that to be a good idea? I don't mind the waitress lady as a potential romantic interest in general, but not in an episode where Sam is flooded with reminders of Jess, kthx. Seriously, way to disrespect the memory of his dead almost-fiancee!
5x04 does look particularly tasty in a lot of ways. I can't wait to see what they do with that set - it looks amazing! And while I expect to be hammered over the head with this week's moral, here's hoping it won't be a complete brick to the face. And you've a point; no matter what, there will be people who come to the conclusion that Dean's rejection of Sam is what leads to the end of the world.
My only question is who sends Dean forward in time; it's a power of the angels, but not one Lucifer seems inclined to play around with and if Zachariah and his ilk could get ahold of Dean, it would be to torture him into submission, not to send him on a field trip through time. Which leaves God and Castiel, to my mind. Castiel did seem a bit upset that Dean was so ready to dismiss Sam in 5x03, so perhaps he's the one who does it but messing with the future seems like such a major deal, far more difficult than sending someone to the past. Only one past but an infinite number of futures, you know? And Castiel is supposedly weakened now (though he seems far more badass now than he did in S4), so perhaps it was God after all?
All I know is that I'm looking forward to Thursday!
Pretty sure we're going to get some input on Sam's feelings for Dean soon, and hopefully even see something where Dean figures out what he's feeling himself. I keep seeing posts from people declaring that Dean's just in denial and he's fooling no one, but I think the situation is a lot more complex than that. While it's not really fair to Sam, I think Dean's relating his remaining horror about Hell and his terror in S3 (and perhaps even the issues with Sam's "destiny" in S2 and John's disappearance and death in S1) with Sam now and so of course it's going to feel like a weight lifted to no longer have to deal with all of that. And that's a lot more difficult to work through than a petulant "I'm just FINE without him!" sour grapes sort of attitude.
Eurgh, Deadbeat Daddy syndrome. I think the remaining absentee father issues could have handled it quite nicely, but I suspect that a bar wouldn't have appealed to the 12 year old boy mentality that many of the writers have in nearly the same way as a whorehouse did.
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Pretty sure we're going to get some input on Sam's feelings for Dean soon, and hopefully even see something where Dean figures out what he's feeling himself. I keep seeing posts from people declaring that Dean's just in denial and he's fooling no one, but I think the situation is a lot more complex than that. While it's not really fair to Sam, I think Dean's relating his remaining horror about Hell and his terror in S3 (and perhaps even the issues with Sam's "destiny" in S2 and John's disappearance and death in S1) with Sam now and so of course it's going to feel like a weight lifted to no longer have to deal with all of that. And that's a lot more difficult to work through than a petulant "I'm just FINE without him!" sour grapes sort of attitude. Yeah I don't think Dean is just in denial. That scene was way more complex than that. I think there was a substantial amount of truth in his declaration but that doesn't mean that he's stopped loving or missing his brother. These characters are capable of having more than one emotion at a time, contradictory though they may be. :)
Dean spent his whole life being told that his only value to the family was in how well he took care of Sam and what he could do for his family. Hell John's final words to him were in essence, that he was proud of him for taking care of the family without complaint, oh and btw, make sure Sammy doesn't go evil otherwise you're gonna have to kill him. That is a huge burden and one that isn't Sam's fault.
But Sam also told Dean, I need you kill me if I go evol, which is Sam's fault and also a huge burden. He also made it clear all through season 3, that he needed Dean to be strong act like his big brother. He made it clear he needed Dean to be on board with his plans otherwise Dean was letting him down. He pretty much did the same thing all through season 4, from my interpretation. Then you had the lying, the sneaking around the statements of Dean's weakness and stupidity, and Bobby laying it on thick that it's Dean's responsibility to save Sam from himself and now Cas and Zach pointing out that it was Dean's failure to stop Sam that broke the world. I honestly don't see how Dean could not see Sam as a burden at this point.
I think right now, the pendulum has swung the other way for Dean. Before he clung to Sam tightly enough that it was probably a little suffocating to Sam but now he's running in the opposite direction and there is a certain freedom to just letting Sam go. He also had a tendency to be completely blind to Sam's flaws before but now, they're all he can see. It's a perfectly natural reaction to a big break up. But I suspect Dean will swing back to the middle and judging by spoilers, its going to happen by the end of this week's episode.
I think once the boys are back together, there will be a brief honeymoon period and then some of the same issues that have plagued them for four years, will re-emerge. But this time they will actually try to deal with some of them. At least I hope so. :)
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Exactly! That's why I get so annoyed when people are all "oh, he's just in denial! He'll come around!" because while I do think Dean is trying to subsume how much he misses his brother, his anger is a real and valid emotion, as is his resentment and his relief at not having to deal withhis family any more.
Yeah, John's words have a touch of bitter irony to them. "I've always put too much on you and I'm sorry! Oh yeah, btw, your baby brother who you love and whose needs I've taught you to put well above your own might go evil and if he does, you have to kill him. BRB, dying now!" HONESTLY.
I agree, Dean has reasons to be resentful of Sam beyond just S4 and the fact that Sam was quite obviously the preferred child. In S3, Sam kept asking him to invalidate his deal, which could have resulted in Sam's death which really would have been Dean's fault. Sam wanted him to play Russian Roulette with Sam's life and then got pissy when he refused. That had to be especially grating because there's NOTHING saying that Sam couldn't have gone off to do research on his own. Dean couldn't break the deal - Sam could. The only time Sam has angered me as much as he did in 4x14 with the "boo hoo" speech was when he got on his soap box and pretentiously railed on Dean for not being able to be saved if he won't save himself. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DEAL.
I agree - Sam is a burden right now. I think Sam's even subconsciously acknowledged that with his "you can't trust me when I don't trust myself" line. Dean has too many things on his plate right now and he's putting the world above his brother which means he hasn't got the time to focus on how to put Sam back together. I think Dean should have sent Sam back to Bobby's rather than just letting him go off on his own, personally, or at least suggested to Sam (or Bobby) that it might be a good idea but he's doing exactly what Sam has been asking him to do since S1: trust in Sam's judgment and let him go his own way.
(Seriously, why didn't anyone think to send Sam to Bobby's? Bobby could use the help right now, Sam could do research without being tempted by demons, he could have still been contributing! It drives me crazy.)
The spoilers make me nervous. I'm quite worried that the moral of 5x04 will be that Dean needs to get off his high horse and reconcile with his brother for the good of the world and frankly that invalidates Dean's move towards independence. That would make going back to Sam a necessity rather than a desire and Dean's had enough with being forced into taking care of his brother. The man has had to do it since he was four with the only break he got from his duty being a few years with his father (who abandoned him after singing Sam's graces to random people to such an extent that they remembered years after the fact - see Phantom Traveler) and his forty years in Hell. Let's have less being needed and more being wanted, eh?
I think once they get back together, things will still be rocky for a while. I expect that 5x04 will be the nadir in their relationship, with things slowly starting to come back together afterward. Which is almost a storytelling mistake, IMHO; I'd rather that they fell apart completely after the world was saved so that they could have a few years apart and then come back together again and slowly work out their differences. Right now, they're on such a deadline that I'm not sure how they'll keep from rushing through it. And let's face it - dealing with the long term consequences has never been one of Supernatural's saving points.
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Also it looks like they wanted a SamSex episode (though that ended up on the cutting room floor) and I guess that wouldn't have been possible if he was at Bobby's. Although why they thought Sam would be in any kind of headspace to be having casual sex (especially when he's having visions of Jessica) is totally beyond me. It's just kind of bizarre and I'm really glad wiser heads prevailed.
I suspect it has something to do with them attempting to give Sam someone sympathetic to talk to, which is what Cas has become for Dean. But man, they just cannot seem to get a decent 20-something actress or even write a decent 20-something female character, if their life depended on it.
The spoilers make me nervous. I'm quite worried that the moral of 5x04 will be that Dean needs to get off his high horse and reconcile with his brother for the good of the world and frankly that invalidates Dean's move towards independence. That would make going back to Sam a necessity rather than a desire and Dean's had enough with being forced into taking care of his brother. The man has had to do it since he was four with the only break he got from his duty being a few years with his father (who abandoned him after singing Sam's graces to random people to such an extent that they remembered years after the fact - see Phantom Traveler) and his forty years in Hell. Let's have less being needed and more being wanted, eh?
Hehe. I'm not worried about Dean's big lesson learned in 504 because I'm pretty much reconciled to the fact that it is going to be one big get-back-to-your-family-dumbass smackdown. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy what looks like one of the best-looing epis in terms of family values and the two Deans and just ignore the rest. The only thing that gives me a tiny bit of hope is that Edlund is writing this one and he does seem to appreciate Dean in a way that none of the other writers do, including Kripke. Hopefully the smack-down will be gentle and come across more as Dean feels that with the world and his brother's immortal soul at stake, he has to be the bigger man and forgive if not forget. Rather than Dean was meeeeeen to Sam and brought about the end of the world. Of course no matter what, that's how certain factions of this fandom are going to interpret it anyway. Oh well.
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OK that should be best-looking epis in terms of production values. *blush*
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You might have something to that. It also would have been harder to have the hunters attack him at Bobby's and that would have denied him the opportunity to reject the demon blood. Though they could have worked it as Sam working at a bar in Bobby's home town, I suppose it might have come across as contrived and ultra convenient. Well. Not that it sort of didn't regardless, but it would have been worse had it been Bobby's town.
And SO AGREED on the issue of Sam having sex while remembering Jess! Seriously, how could anyone have thought that to be a good idea? I don't mind the waitress lady as a potential romantic interest in general, but not in an episode where Sam is flooded with reminders of Jess, kthx. Seriously, way to disrespect the memory of his dead almost-fiancee!
5x04 does look particularly tasty in a lot of ways. I can't wait to see what they do with that set - it looks amazing! And while I expect to be hammered over the head with this week's moral, here's hoping it won't be a complete brick to the face. And you've a point; no matter what, there will be people who come to the conclusion that Dean's rejection of Sam is what leads to the end of the world.
My only question is who sends Dean forward in time; it's a power of the angels, but not one Lucifer seems inclined to play around with and if Zachariah and his ilk could get ahold of Dean, it would be to torture him into submission, not to send him on a field trip through time. Which leaves God and Castiel, to my mind. Castiel did seem a bit upset that Dean was so ready to dismiss Sam in 5x03, so perhaps he's the one who does it but messing with the future seems like such a major deal, far more difficult than sending someone to the past. Only one past but an infinite number of futures, you know? And Castiel is supposedly weakened now (though he seems far more badass now than he did in S4), so perhaps it was God after all?
All I know is that I'm looking forward to Thursday!
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