Some initial thoughts on S5...
So, the season five. I don't normally do episode reaction posts, preferring to get my squee on in meta-post comments, but these two episodes have quite pleased me and I want to jot out a few thoughts. I thought both of them were generally tightly plotted, brilliantly acted, and that the cinematography (particularly in 5x01) was just delightful
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Sam certainly seemed different when hopped up on the demon blood. He was colder, crueler, and far more dangerous. I like his withdrawal symptoms being real because that allows me to explain his mood shifts as being mainly due to the blood and not Sam himself as well. I guess I take it like alcoholism; being drunk doesn't put bad thoughts into your head or make you any crueler than you can be when sober, but it removes a lot of your inhibitions. And when you come off a binge, you get one hell of a hang over.
I didn't see it as a gift at all.
From Castiel's perspective, it would have been a gift. And look at Dean's dream from 4x20 - alone in a serene, quiet setting where he was happy. That is, I think, the first time we've seen Dean happy in S4 since all the way back in Monster Movie when he was living under false hope. Castiel was offering Dean exactly what he craved, not understanding that Dean will always put what's right above what's wanted.
Mind, I'm glad that Dean made the choice that he did. S5 would be playing out in a considerably different manner otherwise and I'm pretty sure that Zachariah would have already either fooled Dean into consenting or would be now torturing him to agree to being Michael's vessel. Dean WAS correct to reject Castiel's offer, but that's just one of the many things that makes Dean a hero to my mind. He sacrificed his own peace and security for what was good for the world.
But that doesn't change the fact that Castiel thought it was a good thing. He's seen Dean miserable and he's seen humanity suffer. He's seen the way Sam treated Dean and the way humans in general treat one another. From the eternally distant perspective, Heaven sounds like a much better deal than the hellish conditions of Earth. And true, he was sipping on Zachariah's kool-ade there, but thankfully Dean was able to make him see reason. *g*
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What role did the demon blood play in modifying Sam's mood and thought processes? Was Ruby right when she said that it was in him all along or did the blood change his powers and how they could be used?
I agree that it def had an effect on him, and brought on some personality changes. Like you say, it removes inhibitions, and it also made him more agressive, brought out more of his dark side. I've also wondered about what Ruby said, because does this mean that Sam can use his powers without drinking the blood?
But that doesn't change the fact that Castiel thought it was a good thing. He's seen Dean miserable and he's seen humanity suffer.
It's true that he may have thought it was a good thing, but what seemed scary to me is that Castiel didn't even consider how much misery and suffering there would be if billions of people die, and what kind of life they'd suffer through before their deaths. It's more like he wants the end result (paradise), and since he thinks that people are miserable anyway, well, then, that somehow justifies the Apocalypse! Because the paradise Castiel's talking about... the one he supposedly wants to "gift" to Dean, is what happens after the bloodbath of the Apocalypse. It's also telling that Castiel says "I see nothing but pain here". As if there's nothing else on earth but that?
Dean WAS correct to reject Castiel's offer, but that's just one of the many things that makes Dean a hero to my mind. He sacrificed his own peace and security for what was good for the world.
Yes. At the same time, he said he'd take the pain and the guilt, even Sam as is. rather then be a stepford bitch in paradise. So, Dean rejected that offer of paradise, I don't think he saw it as true "peace".
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In which case, Sam would be able to use them without drinking the demon blood. He might not get some of the other perks out of the bargain, but he'd have a few more tools in his arsenal than the average human.
Yup, I agree about your thoughts on Castiel. That's pretty much exactly what I see him doing. The difference between Zachariah and Castiel, to my mind, is that Cas actually seems to care that humanity would be happier in the end whereas Zachariah doesn't seem to give a damn about humanity at all. Castiel seemed to be grasping at the concept of heaven to sooth himself about what what going on, right up until Dean burst his bubble and reminded him that, thanks but no thanks, humans would prefer to keep going as they are.
I think Dean wouldn't have been nearly so against the concept if he hadn't just learned the plans that the angels had and exactly how bad the situation was. Dean's remarkably stubborn; he would have rejected anything offered to him once he found out exactly how much he'd been lied to and how much at risk Sam was. (Everything except maybe a cheeseburger, that is!)
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The psychic kids could use their powers without drinking demon blood, it's just that Sam didn't have an "active" power until Ruby trained him on how to use it, which makes me think he didn't know the ability existed. I think the demon blood lowered his inhibitions so that he could tap into that power, but for some reason he can't activate it without the demon blood, or maybe he just believes he can't. I don't know. I do wonder though, how Sam became powerful enough to kill the most powerful demon in hell... something no one else was able to do.
Castiel doesn't mention humanity being happier, only Dean and paradise. But since he was under Zach's orders, we'll never know exactly how Castiel felt.
I just thought of something.... here the angels are promising him paradise, but their goal is to get him to be Michael's vessel, win the war, and bring on paradise. But being a vessel wouldn't be "paradise" for Dean. Far from it. Also, there's no guarantee that heaven will win. They don't win, then no paradise on earth.
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All of which makes me highly suspicious that there might be something going on with Dean as well. There was a really intriguing meta posted not too long back that made the connection that the only two human hosts who have retaken control from the demons riding them were asked to by Dean, for that matter. John and Bobby are both considered really unusual in that they reclaimed their own control, but what if they didn't? What if that was a latent power on Dean's part? Sam wasn't able to retake control when Meg possessed him, but then again, Dean never asked Sam to either. *g*
I think Sam's gifts were innate. I'm reminded of baby Rosie from Salvation. She was also a psychic child that the demon targeted, and the only one that we saw before he was able to attack. Given the similarity between her situation and Sam's, I've got to say that either Sam's powers were his own and the demon wanted to corrupt them or he was using Rosie to tempt Sam (and/or John) out into the open and the fact that she was psychic played no part in the situation. However, it makes sense to me that Sam would have some sort of talent, seeing as he's a vessel.
It's been confirmed that Sam's visions came from the YED. My understanding was that the other psychic kids got lessons on how to use their talents via dreams. Sam though never had those dreams. His psychic talent was precognition through visions - purely defensive and not really all that useful. So why those when others got super strength and TK and telepathy/mind control? My thought is that Sam was a wildcard and YED didn't want to give him that much power, but he DID want to control him. So he'd send him a vision of someone in peril and Sam would scuttle off to save them. But because Sam never had the lessons the other kids did, his precog was highly unreliable. He never learned to control it.
Instead we see him exorcising demons in S4. It's a completely new power that none of the other psykids showed and it makes me wonder just when Sam started to drink the demon blood, if he could exorcise demons without it or not. It did definitely give him a boost, though whether that was in terms of pure confidence or an actual increase in power, we can't be certain. Ruby says it was all within Sam all along, but it looked like he'd give himself a stroke if he took on demons too strong for him. It's things like this that make me wish we'd had more from Sam's side of the story. How did he know he could kill Alistair, for instance? Could he have done that all along?
I think a lot of the demon blood was to enable Sam to serve as a host for Lucifer. It strengthened him while corrupting his flesh; Sam's eyes flashed demon black twice in S4, so the blood seemed to have that much of an impact on him. Maybe it also served to corrupt his powers as well. The angels seemed to be exorcising, not killing (much the same as Alistair tried to do with Castiel) but Sam goes outside of that line and moves on to death. Maybe it's because it's the mingling of angelic and demonic powers?
Re: Michael and Dean
Kinda sneaky on Zach's part, wasn't it? We see in 5x03 how bad an angelic vessel can have it and for Dean it would be considerably worse. Wonder why Castiel didn't think of that before! Maybe he didn't know that Dean was to serve as a vessel? It's the only thing I can think of. Castiel appeared to have changed his mind because of Dean's words, but maybe it was only then that he learned the truth about what Dean's true "mission" was.
As for playing the odds, I doubt Zach ever thought they'd lose. That angel is an overconfident jackass; the suggestion that they might not win is one I can't imagine ever occurring to him.
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In a deleted scene, it shows Dean looking at his watch, and then turning the car around to go back to Sam. Maybe he decided he wanted to talk to Sam about something? Or he already missed him so bad he couldn't wait to see him again? I don't know, lol. But yeah, in the original we don't even see that, so it is kind of weird. But really, in almost every episode there's something that make me scratch my head and think, wtf?
Sam wasn't able to retake control when Meg possessed him, but then again, Dean never asked Sam to either. *g*
Wouldn't the binding link have prevented that?
It's things like this that make me wish we'd had more from Sam's side of the story. How did he know he could kill Alistair, for instance? Could he have done that all along?
Yes, I wish they'd told more of Sam's side of the story. And about him knowing he could kill Alistair.... how did Jake know he could use mind control on Ellen? He said something like, there's all kind of tricks he can do, once he opened up his mind to it. Maybe he sensed he could? With Sam, it could have been a combination of him somehow knowing he suddenly had the ability, and the fact that he was increasing the amount of demon blood. The more blood he took in, the stronger he got, and the more his powers increased.
I think a lot of the demon blood was to enable Sam to serve as a host for Lucifer.
Yes... if he's powerful enough to kill Lilith, then he's certainly strong enough to host Lucifer.
I'd love to know what Ruby and Lucifer meant when they told Sam "it always had to be you". Then why all those other psychic kids? Is Sam part of some demonic prophecy, or something?
Wonder why Castiel didn't think of that before! Maybe he didn't know that Dean was to serve as a vessel? It's the only thing I can think of. Castiel appeared to have changed his mind because of Dean's words, but maybe it was only then that he learned the truth about what Dean's true "mission" was.
I think Castiel knew about Dean being a vessel. Zach told Dean in 4.22 that Dean was going to kill Lucifer. I can't believe that Castiel had no idea what that would mean. Once he became a "good soldier", and followed Zach's orders without question, there's no reason why Zach wouldn't have let him in on the entire plan. Castiel went along with this because he was too afraid of what would happen to him if he didn't cooperate, and didn't change his mind about that until the end of the ep. .
That angel is an overconfident jackass; the suggestion that they might not win is one I can't imagine ever occurring to him.
lol, yes, he is a jackass.
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Good point about Jake! He seemed to have an exponential learning curve as well, perhaps because he actually met up with Azazel when Azazel gave him his "be my general" speech. My thought is that Ruby told him that he could, or maybe that she had told him that he'd one day be able to. Overconfidence is one of the things that seems to go with the blood, so maybe he wasn't certain that he could but just couldn't feel any doubts.
I really want to know the answer to that as well. Right now, the only logical thing I can come up with is that it had to be Sam for the same reason it had to be Dean - Azazel saw Dean in the past and knew he was of some importance because Dean as good as admitted that he had a sibling who was one of Azazel's psykids and Dean had angelic company himself. Sounds like a decently logical set up for the Righteous Man and the one who would break the final seal to my mind. Who better, all in all?
It seems like there must have been a thousand moments where if Sam or Dean had made a different choice, they wouldn't have been "the ones" after all. My guess is that Zachariah and/or Azazel did their parts to carefully nudge the Winchesters along the path they wanted; Azazel was pretty highly focused on Dean in DT, considering that Sam was his true prize. Why bother to tear down at Dean's self esteem if he wasn't preparing him to someday make his deal? Likewise, why bother to send Sam psychic dreams (and not an actual psychic talent) unless he was trying to direct Sam's actions and lead him down the path that he approved of? We had demons pressing Dean to make a deal as early as the middle of S2 as well, for that matter.
We didn't have Zachariah back in S1-S3, but there's no doubt in my mind that he would have manipulated events as necessary to get the job done. He did in S4 all the time, we just weren't aware of his presence earlier than that.
Good point about Castiel and Zachariah; I'll have to think about that. My only main qualm is that Castiel was also told to follow Dean's orders in ITGP,SW, which implied that Dean would have a far greater role to play than just meatsuit. Castiel had only recently been brought back to the angels' side as well; telling him all when he'd been within a hair of going renegade wouldn't have been wise on Zachariah's part. He might be an overconfident jackass, but he's not a stupid one. I think you are correct though that Castiel's fear of what would be done to him played a significant role.
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I'd say it's actually not a deleted scene, but rather a different edit of the same scene. Because, except for Dean checking his watch and turning around, it pretty much looks the same.
Yes, and Ava said it to, that it's amazing how fast the learning curve is. She also said something about giving in to the powers, and I think that's part of it.
It makes sense that sending Dean back in time tipped Azazel off to the specialness of Sam and Dean. But their actually being special, I think that's something that has to do with them, rather then just Azazel knowing about it. It's kind of hard to explain, lol.
Why bother to tear down at Dean's self esteem if he wasn't preparing him to someday make his deal?
But, if Azazel wanted Dean to make that deal someday, then why did he try to kill Dean at the end of season one? Also, Azazel's son tried to kill Sam, and Meg wanted to kill them both, so... what's up with that? Remember too, that originally they were going to have Sam get Dean out of his contract, and not end up going to hell. So, some of the earlier stuff doesn't match up with what came later.
So, I think Sam and Dean are chosen, but we'll have to wait for more reveals to get a better picture as to why.
I'll have to think about that. My only main qualm is that Castiel was also told to follow Dean's orders in ITGP,SW, which implied that Dean would have a far greater role to play than just meatsuit.
The thing about Castiel's orders in the earlier part season 4, is that Zach didn't want the grunts on the ground to know what was going on. So, some of his orders don't make sense in light of what we know now. Why tell Dean that he had to stop Sam from using his powers, or else the angels would stop Sam? After all, Zachariah wanted Sam to become more powerful, so he could kill Lilith. Zach and the higher angels wanted the seals to break, but the grunts were told to prevent the seals from breaking. So, all these things made it appear like the angels wanted to stop the Apocalypse (and the grunts believed this).
Perhaps the "following Dean's orders" was a way of making Dean feel "important", getting him ready for the reveal that he would be the one to "stop it" (the Apocalypse), and then never telling him what it is he'd have to do. They needed to string Dean along all season, make him believe he would "stop it".
I can't imagine Michael letting Dean have any control once he consented to be his vessel, or letting Dean have any kind of role as a leader, etc.
Castiel had only recently been brought back to the angels' side as well; telling him all when he'd been within a hair of going renegade wouldn't have been wise on Zachariah's part.
That makes sense to me, too. That he wouldn't trust him enough. But, I see reasons why Zach would tell him everthing. After all, Castiel had just gotten his ass kicked real good in heaven. I can see Zach believing that Castiel wouldn't dare turn against him or spill any secrets after that. My best guess is that Castiel had learned all the juicy stuff by the time of The Rapture, and he tried to warn Dean right before he had his ass dragged off to heaven.
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