Some initial thoughts on S5...

[ginzai]

So, the season five. I don't normally do episode reaction posts, preferring to get my squee on in meta-post comments, but these two episodes have quite pleased me and I want to jot out a few thoughts. I thought both of them were generally tightly plotted, brilliantly acted, and that the cinematography (particularly in 5x01) was just delightful

Comments

[ginzai]

I think Bobby was my least favorite recurring character in SPN following 4x22 and he's still really in that position, but the gap from where he was and where he is now isn't quite as high. If they back off of the daddy!Bobby concept though, my ire will be much appeased.

I like it too. It means Sam gave Dean God radio. ;)

Ha! It figures - Anna gets Angel radio, but Dean has the upgraded version. He's got satellite. :D

It wasn't as important, what Sam did, to him as it was to Dean. (Oh, Dean.) And. Or. Something. I think that's in character, in any case, but he may have also felt it wasn't his place to say anything, that he would wait for Dean to say something...

Wow, I hadn't even considered the option that Sam might not care about it. I like the other concept so much better, that Sam didn't say anything because he's feeling shaky and uncertain and doesn't necessarily feel he has the right to speak up. Sam knows it's important, after all - he took it with him when he buried Dean. Even after he gave up on saving his brother, he still wore his amulet around his neck.

I think Dean gave in so quickly to Castiel's demand because he basically got hit in his largest vulnerable spot - the fact that he started all this and he couldn't stop Sam. Dean felt horrifically guilty in S4 about his role in the apocalypse and I doubt at all that any of that has gone away. It's like the world's biggest guilt trip so it doesn't surprise me at all that Dean caved so quickly. He still demanded to get it back though, in the end. Which is a good thing!

The reconciliation is going to be just beautiful. I'm hoping they take it slow and don't have any 4x17 episodes. I don't want a hamhanded Zachariah style speech to get them back in business. They spent a year breaking Sam and Dean apart and it seems fair to me that it should take almost as long to get them back together again. But I do want it to happen and I can't wait to see where it goes when they do. :)

[ginzai]

See, Sam carrying the amulet around after Dean's death really starts to make me think because Sam DID give up remarkably quickly (as we've discussed before) but what would it mean that he kept Dean's amulet and wore it thereafter? And does it signify anything that Sam kept it under his clothing? Was he unwilling to allow anyone else to see it or did he want to keep it close to his heart? It's like a mini-symbolic moment of Sam's feelings towards Dean throughout all of S4!

[andromakhe001]

Why do you think he gave in quickly? I think to a certain extent there is limitations of the show itself. They are not going to spend ten minutes on Dean and Castiel wrangling over the amulet. It just is not the sort of thing worth spending that amount of time on. Dean clearly was NOT keen on giving it up at all. And when he did, was very clearly that Castiel was NOT TO LOSE IT. That was the show's version of them spending ten minutes wrangling over it.

I don't think guilt had anything to do with Dean's giving it him. I think Dean gave it to him, because, Dean's rarely as stuck in is opinion as what he says would make it appear. Dean knows very well about Daddies who don't care and aren't around when you need them, but he also knows there is a chance Castiel might be right and if he is, then to keep the amulet from him is putting the world at risk.

Besides despite what Castiel said, Dean and Sam are by far not the only ones responsible and frankly it's time for Castiel take responsibility for his own actions. He made a decision, there was always every chance it wouldn't work given that Castiel waited until the last possible minute to get Dean out of that Green Room. Dean was one human against a demon, a demon blood hopped up brother and demon who wanted to die.

Who let Sam out of the panic room, where Dean was detoxing him and keeping him from killing Lilith? Castiel. Who helped keep Dean locked in that Green Room? Castiel. Castiel is every bit as responsible for his part in this Apocalypse as Dean and Sam for their's. Dean put up the least argument about his part in it(he pretty much just turned away from Alastair, shattered into a thousand pieces and then accepted it, though he still asked Castiel for confirmation), Sam realized it fairly quickly(though I don't think it's really sunk it yet entirely). I'm not seeing Castiel admitting to anything in these scenes. Castiel didn't break a seal but his actions led directly to one of them being broken.

Or better yet, shall we say it's Castiel's fault for not getting to Dean in time Hell? How is that different from Dean not getting to Sam in time? Castiel might want to think about that.

But Dean and he are awfully cute with their lovers quarrels. ;)(I don't actually slash them but they are very intense around each other:)

[ginzai]

Timing and the show's limitations in that regard certainly played a role, don't get me wrong. However, I'd argue that the choice of dialogue immediately prior to Dean's capitulation is pretty significant and that was decided 100% by TPTB. They chose for Dean to give in right after Castiel guilt tripped him.

As for the matter OF guilt, you're totally right - Sam and Dean were not the only ones at fault. However, that's a perspective that we, outside of the show, can take from a logical position. Dean's take on it is probably not going to be so cut and dry. Dean seemed to assume full responsibility (from his perspective) from the moment Castiel confirmed it when he asked "Is it true? Did I start all of this?" in 4x16. Learning that he'd broken the first seal crushed him.

Truth is, I do think Castiel has some guilt in regards to the breaking of the last seal. His is probably a lower level than I'd hold than against other characters since there's nothing Castiel did that someone else couldn't have done or hadn't done - he knew the truth about Lilith, but so did Chuck and for longer besides, but no one is getting on Chuck's case for not coming clean and if Castiel hadn't released Sam, Zachariah had a whole slew of other angels who could have done so for him - but he's got his own level of personal responsibility for the situation at hand.

I don't blame him for not getting to Dean in time while Dean was in Hell though. His orders probably came from Zachariah, who WANTED Dean to break. I was wondering from 4x10 onwards why it took the angels so long to get Dean out. I mean, forty years... That's insane! My guess is that they didn't actually take after Dean to rescue him until after he'd already broken or shortly before and that was all Zachariah's doing. At some point, I'd really love for Dean to recognize that fact!

Dean and Cas are rather cute. I like them best in a platonic, not romantic, relationship but they're rather adorable on occasion with their intensity and ability to guilt trip each other into submission!