Headline News: DC Intern admits to putting crack in the coffee
I mean, what else would explain the Batman and the rest of the DCU of late.
I'm breaking my original promise of being nothing more than a depot of smut and shallowness and am actually going to express an opinion.
After being forewarned, several times by kerithwyn, to avoid Batman #644, I went and read a copy anyway. I'm not good with Pandora type boxes. No one should ever tempt me in such in a manner.
Needless to say, if it was Willingham's intent to get my hack up, he succeeded. Even after the initial shock, I was at a loss of how to explain it. However, nottasuch's more easily digestable take on the ending, prompted a discussion that made it clear to me why I had problem this ending.
~
gene_lee:
#644 was contrived and extremely out of character. There was nothing to even suggest or build to this conclusion. It smacked of the agenda the Bat-office has of a) removing Batman's supporting cast so he can be a lone soldier and b) switching the focus of fault and consequence from Batman to someone else.
I don't believe that Bruce is ultimately to blame for War Games, but who's going to think about all of Bruce's idiot and negligent decisions in regards to Stephanie when now you have Leslie to outright blame for her death.
nottasuch:
I agree. And I don't really have a problem with those 2 directives, as they are. (A few little qualms, but those are more about my kinks than what's good for the never-ending nature of the *story*.) However, there are a million ways DC could have accomplished this that *didn't* waste characters.
*steps out of retcon-happy bubble*
I agree. And I don't really have a problem with those 2 directives, as they are. (A few little qualms, but those are more about my kinks than what's good for the never-ending nature of the *story*.) However, there are a million ways DC could have accomplished this that *didn't* waste characters.
For one instance, the above. a) Leslie left for Africa so she can't help Bruce (she might even *stay*) and b) *Stephanie*, with a small chance of *also someone else*.
Blaming it all on Leslie was a cheap fix, and it's so out of character I can't take it seriously. (Maybe she's SLADE.)
*goes back in bubble*
gene_lee:
That's exactly what I had a problem with. Its not the directives for change that bother me as much as that it came at a cost of a really important character that will NEVER bounce back from this storyline. Any writer or fan who believes that are fooling themselves. What she did is murder.
But that's hardly a new concept in the Batverse and I've been trying to wrap my brain around why this whole thing bothers me more than any previous storyline. On another board, someone mentioned the hypocrisy of Batman "attacking" Leslie for taking life when he himself allies his cause with murderers [Azreal, Huntress, Cass, etc]. Which was my thinking at first, yet this feels different. More horrific.
When I think of Steph's last moments, I imagine a young innocent girl being tortured to death, who got away and was fighting to survive. Who wanted to live and had that hope stolen away from her. For some reason, Leslie's monstrous decision enrages me more than any villain Batman has come across.
No doctor, without an intent to harm or kill, would make a decision not to treat someone that is treatable. Which is why there is no reasonable or noble or even understandable argument that Dr. Thompkins can make for her actions, and with that, no logical explanation as to why her character would turn in such a direction.
~~~
Further more, it bothers me that the only thing some readers are taking from this development is that this *proves* how noble Batman is, that "it shows how dedicated Batman really is, even Leslie gave up the never ending battle."
WTF?! This is not a competition. And if this was really done to elevate the main character and mask his mistakes, this will confirm my thoughts on the caste system DC has with its characters.
What Leslie did is HORRIBLE and CRIMINAL, but are we suddenly supposed to forget all the ignorant shit that lead up to it.
Batman doesn't make mistakes often, but when he fucks up, man, he fucks up BIG.
The crap that he's pulled in the last few years and the casualties he's been a party to has often been redeemed by the amount of immeasurable good that he has done. But in a world where Lesie Thompkins, devoted pacifest and healer, has to suffer such character assasignation, I want Bruce to eat a little crow too. For me, its no longer acceptable for him to emote his regret or have some thoughtless writer script a soapbox that he can preach from...
I'm getting tired of this lack of consequence or responsibility that surrounds legacy characters. It kind of falls back on much of what thete1 and red_eft express here and here.
DC, there better be a retcon in your future.
I'm breaking my original promise of being nothing more than a depot of smut and shallowness and am actually going to express an opinion.
After being forewarned, several times by kerithwyn, to avoid Batman #644, I went and read a copy anyway. I'm not good with Pandora type boxes. No one should ever tempt me in such in a manner.
Needless to say, if it was Willingham's intent to get my hack up, he succeeded. Even after the initial shock, I was at a loss of how to explain it. However, nottasuch's more easily digestable take on the ending, prompted a discussion that made it clear to me why I had problem this ending.
~
gene_lee:
#644 was contrived and extremely out of character. There was nothing to even suggest or build to this conclusion. It smacked of the agenda the Bat-office has of a) removing Batman's supporting cast so he can be a lone soldier and b) switching the focus of fault and consequence from Batman to someone else.
I don't believe that Bruce is ultimately to blame for War Games, but who's going to think about all of Bruce's idiot and negligent decisions in regards to Stephanie when now you have Leslie to outright blame for her death.
nottasuch:
I agree. And I don't really have a problem with those 2 directives, as they are. (A few little qualms, but those are more about my kinks than what's good for the never-ending nature of the *story*.) However, there are a million ways DC could have accomplished this that *didn't* waste characters.
*steps out of retcon-happy bubble*
I agree. And I don't really have a problem with those 2 directives, as they are. (A few little qualms, but those are more about my kinks than what's good for the never-ending nature of the *story*.) However, there are a million ways DC could have accomplished this that *didn't* waste characters.
For one instance, the above. a) Leslie left for Africa so she can't help Bruce (she might even *stay*) and b) *Stephanie*, with a small chance of *also someone else*.
Blaming it all on Leslie was a cheap fix, and it's so out of character I can't take it seriously. (Maybe she's SLADE.)
*goes back in bubble*
gene_lee:
That's exactly what I had a problem with. Its not the directives for change that bother me as much as that it came at a cost of a really important character that will NEVER bounce back from this storyline. Any writer or fan who believes that are fooling themselves. What she did is murder.
But that's hardly a new concept in the Batverse and I've been trying to wrap my brain around why this whole thing bothers me more than any previous storyline. On another board, someone mentioned the hypocrisy of Batman "attacking" Leslie for taking life when he himself allies his cause with murderers [Azreal, Huntress, Cass, etc]. Which was my thinking at first, yet this feels different. More horrific.
When I think of Steph's last moments, I imagine a young innocent girl being tortured to death, who got away and was fighting to survive. Who wanted to live and had that hope stolen away from her. For some reason, Leslie's monstrous decision enrages me more than any villain Batman has come across.
No doctor, without an intent to harm or kill, would make a decision not to treat someone that is treatable. Which is why there is no reasonable or noble or even understandable argument that Dr. Thompkins can make for her actions, and with that, no logical explanation as to why her character would turn in such a direction.
~~~
Further more, it bothers me that the only thing some readers are taking from this development is that this *proves* how noble Batman is, that "it shows how dedicated Batman really is, even Leslie gave up the never ending battle."
WTF?! This is not a competition. And if this was really done to elevate the main character and mask his mistakes, this will confirm my thoughts on the caste system DC has with its characters.
What Leslie did is HORRIBLE and CRIMINAL, but are we suddenly supposed to forget all the ignorant shit that lead up to it.
Batman doesn't make mistakes often, but when he fucks up, man, he fucks up BIG.
The crap that he's pulled in the last few years and the casualties he's been a party to has often been redeemed by the amount of immeasurable good that he has done. But in a world where Lesie Thompkins, devoted pacifest and healer, has to suffer such character assasignation, I want Bruce to eat a little crow too. For me, its no longer acceptable for him to emote his regret or have some thoughtless writer script a soapbox that he can preach from...
I'm getting tired of this lack of consequence or responsibility that surrounds legacy characters. It kind of falls back on much of what thete1 and red_eft express here and here.
DC, there better be a retcon in your future.