I recall you describing this workplace. No idea how you tolerated it. What you describe is like 99% why I never went into food service (I know the pawn shop is different but challenge anyone to find a female waitress who hasn't experienced all that you and I have described and then some)
THE SPACES indeed! I know there are messy women out there but... I think (I guess? don't actually know) that the difference is that women are TAUGHT in the ways of cleaning? Are conditioned and trained to observe and act upon cleanliness/household chores. Do people teach their sons to fold laundry?
Jameson does his own laundry, but I notice that he often overloads the washer/dryer. Probably no one taught him not to do that/WHY not to do that. He also doesn't fold clothes neatly; his folding is sufficient but what I'm noticing is probably a difference in experience. His mother probably did his laundry until college age. I was helping mom fold clothes, cook, and clean before I was in school.
Anyway that's a sidetrack. When you really think about what women have to intentionally ignore just to do a job, or to live in pseudo-normalcy...it really is wild. We're people too...but only because we insist/persist on it.
I didn't join food service because I did phone service which paid a little more, had regular hours, could sit to work, and I came home smelling like flopsweat rather than french fries... but I've never known a woman who worked in food service as a lone woman among a company of only men. I think there is safety and security in public settings and mixed company, but not always.
I also worked in an office of 50 women and 2 men. And those dudes were given a hard time as well, but it was a totally different way. Mostly they weren't allowed to talk to women who were not CERTAIN women who felt they could control/dominate those men's social time/attention. The men never got censured for who they talked to... the OTHER WOMEN got censured for talking to 'The Boys' (or The Boys talking to them) and accused of flirting rather than working. Not in a Work Censure sorta way, no paperwork. Just gossip and if that didn't work unsigned "personal notes" that declared you were being indelicate, overstepping bounds, and stated that the guys "weren't playthings". I was the only person stupid enough to show my note to the guys and guy like, "Woah... do you know what this is?" and they were both like, "Ohhh... yeah, that's Sandy. She's... sorta protective, I guess? She just really doesn't like it when she finds out I talk to other people. Don't worry, I think she's harmless... just kinda jealous."
AND ALL THE WOMEN let it happen... let these guys be socially isolated at work and controlled by a co-worker who was territorial about our two dudes.This is so easily identified as domineering/abusive behavior except... when it's done by a woman, I guess? But its not like they were being catcalled at work, groped, have a "Which coworker would you rather bang?" list up in the breakroom sorta bullshit.
I think men and women both grow up with women-are-cleaners/men-are-dirtiers role modeled, although now that stay-at-home Dads are more prevalent, I'd hope that is changing (on the assumption those stay-at-home-dads are doing housework during the day as stay-at-home moms are expected to). I've met SO MANY MEN who can use a washer machine, but don't know that dishwashers/clotheswashers have... settings or special ways to be loaded. They're know-it-alls about computers or power tools and are so persnickety about The Correct Way to Use Machines... but never considered household appliances (vacuums, washers, dryers, ovens, crock pots, etc) worthy of taking 10 minutes to learn how to use/clean them properly/safely or even THINK of them as specialty tools.
Perhaps it's because we train women that cleaning is THEIR job and teach men fixing is THEIR job, so women don't know how to fix a leaky faucet and guys don't know how to clean out the lint filter, and we are also socialized to PROTECT these roles. Like, not to assume... but you say you noticed Jameson doesn't [X] and maybe he was never taught the subtleties, but it doesn't seem like you want to be the one to tell him he's been shortening the life of his clothes (and the machine itself) for 20+ years.
My partner did the same thing with overloading and not sorting his clothes for the washer(everything is a giant load, jeans and dress shirts and underwear and t-shirts all together... all on hot/heavy wash) but we're working on it and since he's a mechanical engineer it was pretty funny for him to be like, "WOAH, so... this machine has... needs? Like... any other machine? I never really THOUGHT about it!" He had a Super-Mom... who lived her LIFE for her kids (girls and boys both) and then gave a haphazard "This is how you do dishes/use a stove/wash clothes/mop a floor" lesson the week before they moved out.
I'll admit household cleaning was NOT in my mom's priorities. She put us kids to work ASAP... she'd do outdoor/horse stuff and inside was our job, and she didn't really care about neatness so our lackluster job was rarely even noticed.
Like, not to assume... but you say you noticed Jameson doesn't [X] and maybe he was never taught the subtleties, but it doesn't seem like you want to be the one to tell him he's been shortening the life of his clothes (and the machine itself) for 20+ years.
You're not wrong haha. There are a few reasons, I suppose.
I think he'll be butthurt if I try to mansplain him on how to do laundry at the age of 42. Like, it's not like his clothes are coming out moldy, or that we've had to replace the washer because he overloads it. It's something that I notice because I was taught not to do it, but ultimately the only reason to bring it up would be to alleviate my own pet peeve or to nitpick/nag/control his actions.
My sister once stopped me while I was cutting up a pineapple, and insisted on doing it herself because she knew a "better" way. I remember how annoyed and insulted I felt because in the context of how we were using the pineapple it didn't matter whatsoever how they were cut; she just wanted it done "her way." I am not doing that to Jameson.
An example where I DID speak up was when he used to leave the wet dish sponge in the sink after he was done with it. I waited until I was sure it was a consistent habit of his, then one day after it had been sitting in the sink for two days I told him that I'd prefer he let the sponge dry in its tray instead, and (here's the important bit) I explained why. Using two-day-old-stinky sponge for realtime illustration. Being clear that this wasn't to shame him, but to protect both of us from a potential hazard. And it hasn't been an issue since (well, it's LESS of an issue...he forgets sometimes :P)
I guess it varies (for example your mom didn't care as much; my parents would punish my sisters and I for folding laundry "wrong.") And we can't help what we're taught/conditioned with.
I can't address the rest of this because it's a busy day but appreciated reading your thoughts on these things!
Thank you for taking up this conversation and chatting with me about things that are fun and things that are also not-so-fun.
I'm that mouthy a-hole who is a bit too open with her opinions about how things could/should be done. But I'm also the sublime buddha when they give me, "That's cool... but I'm still doing it my way." that's all I need to move on from the subject.
But I also don't spend much time worrying about whether everyone is capable/comfortable expressing a simple boundary with me if my horn-in is unwanted/unacceptable/hurtful/maddening to them. I try to assume everyone is capable of setting a healthy personal boundary, because otherwise I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME in the mindset of trying to predict specific futures/reactions/etc and working toward getting the reactions *I want*/*I prefer*/*I think is best* which (to me) feels way more manipulative/controlling than being a bit forward/carefree with "my free advice".
So I run a bit rough-shod and hope people speak up if its a problem... and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not at ALL good at Not Saying Anything, I'll Just Watch And Know It's a Mistake. I am the very WORST at that!! So you get my kudos because I sorta wish I had more of that in me!
Sorry punishment was built into your chores at home. My grandma was like that... and I admit it did make me better at house chores than I otherwise would have been, but it didn't really give me a high opinion of/experience with cleaning chores.
THE SPACES indeed! I know there are messy women out there but...
I think (I guess? don't actually know) that the difference is that women are TAUGHT in the ways of cleaning? Are conditioned and trained to observe and act upon cleanliness/household chores. Do people teach their sons to fold laundry?
Jameson does his own laundry, but I notice that he often overloads the washer/dryer. Probably no one taught him not to do that/WHY not to do that. He also doesn't fold clothes neatly; his folding is sufficient but what I'm noticing is probably a difference in experience. His mother probably did his laundry until college age. I was helping mom fold clothes, cook, and clean before I was in school.
Anyway that's a sidetrack. When you really think about what women have to intentionally ignore just to do a job, or to live in pseudo-normalcy...it really is wild. We're people too...but only because we insist/persist on it.
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I also worked in an office of 50 women and 2 men.
And those dudes were given a hard time as well, but it was a totally different way. Mostly they weren't allowed to talk to women who were not CERTAIN women who felt they could control/dominate those men's social time/attention. The men never got censured for who they talked to... the OTHER WOMEN got censured for talking to 'The Boys' (or The Boys talking to them) and accused of flirting rather than working. Not in a Work Censure sorta way, no paperwork. Just gossip and if that didn't work unsigned "personal notes" that declared you were being indelicate, overstepping bounds, and stated that the guys "weren't playthings".
I was the only person stupid enough to show my note to the guys and guy like, "Woah... do you know what this is?" and they were both like, "Ohhh... yeah, that's Sandy. She's... sorta protective, I guess? She just really doesn't like it when she finds out I talk to other people. Don't worry, I think she's harmless... just kinda jealous."
AND ALL THE WOMEN let it happen... let these guys be socially isolated at work and controlled by a co-worker who was territorial about our two dudes.This is so easily identified as domineering/abusive behavior except... when it's done by a woman, I guess? But its not like they were being catcalled at work, groped, have a "Which coworker would you rather bang?" list up in the breakroom sorta bullshit.
I think men and women both grow up with women-are-cleaners/men-are-dirtiers role modeled, although now that stay-at-home Dads are more prevalent, I'd hope that is changing (on the assumption those stay-at-home-dads are doing housework during the day as stay-at-home moms are expected to).
I've met SO MANY MEN who can use a washer machine, but don't know that dishwashers/clotheswashers have... settings or special ways to be loaded. They're know-it-alls about computers or power tools and are so persnickety about The Correct Way to Use Machines... but never considered household appliances (vacuums, washers, dryers, ovens, crock pots, etc) worthy of taking 10 minutes to learn how to use/clean them properly/safely or even THINK of them as specialty tools.
Perhaps it's because we train women that cleaning is THEIR job and teach men fixing is THEIR job, so women don't know how to fix a leaky faucet and guys don't know how to clean out the lint filter, and we are also socialized to PROTECT these roles. Like, not to assume... but you say you noticed Jameson doesn't [X] and maybe he was never taught the subtleties, but it doesn't seem like you want to be the one to tell him he's been shortening the life of his clothes (and the machine itself) for 20+ years.
My partner did the same thing with overloading and not sorting his clothes for the washer(everything is a giant load, jeans and dress shirts and underwear and t-shirts all together... all on hot/heavy wash) but we're working on it and since he's a mechanical engineer it was pretty funny for him to be like, "WOAH, so... this machine has... needs? Like... any other machine? I never really THOUGHT about it!"
He had a Super-Mom... who lived her LIFE for her kids (girls and boys both) and then gave a haphazard "This is how you do dishes/use a stove/wash clothes/mop a floor" lesson the week before they moved out.
I'll admit household cleaning was NOT in my mom's priorities. She put us kids to work ASAP... she'd do outdoor/horse stuff and inside was our job, and she didn't really care about neatness so our lackluster job was rarely even noticed.
Reply
You're not wrong haha. There are a few reasons, I suppose.
I think he'll be butthurt if I try to mansplain him on how to do laundry at the age of 42. Like, it's not like his clothes are coming out moldy, or that we've had to replace the washer because he overloads it. It's something that I notice because I was taught not to do it, but ultimately the only reason to bring it up would be to alleviate my own pet peeve or to nitpick/nag/control his actions.
My sister once stopped me while I was cutting up a pineapple, and insisted on doing it herself because she knew a "better" way. I remember how annoyed and insulted I felt because in the context of how we were using the pineapple it didn't matter whatsoever how they were cut; she just wanted it done "her way." I am not doing that to Jameson.
An example where I DID speak up was when he used to leave the wet dish sponge in the sink after he was done with it. I waited until I was sure it was a consistent habit of his, then one day after it had been sitting in the sink for two days I told him that I'd prefer he let the sponge dry in its tray instead, and (here's the important bit) I explained why. Using two-day-old-stinky sponge for realtime illustration. Being clear that this wasn't to shame him, but to protect both of us from a potential hazard. And it hasn't been an issue since (well, it's LESS of an issue...he forgets sometimes :P)
I guess it varies (for example your mom didn't care as much; my parents would punish my sisters and I for folding laundry "wrong.") And we can't help what we're taught/conditioned with.
I can't address the rest of this because it's a busy day but appreciated reading your thoughts on these things!
Reply
I'm that mouthy a-hole who is a bit too open with her opinions about how things could/should be done. But I'm also the sublime buddha when they give me, "That's cool... but I'm still doing it my way." that's all I need to move on from the subject.
But I also don't spend much time worrying about whether everyone is capable/comfortable expressing a simple boundary with me if my horn-in is unwanted/unacceptable/hurtful/maddening to them. I try to assume everyone is capable of setting a healthy personal boundary, because otherwise I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME in the mindset of trying to predict specific futures/reactions/etc and working toward getting the reactions *I want*/*I prefer*/*I think is best* which (to me) feels way more manipulative/controlling than being a bit forward/carefree with "my free advice".
So I run a bit rough-shod and hope people speak up if its a problem... and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not at ALL good at Not Saying Anything, I'll Just Watch And Know It's a Mistake. I am the very WORST at that!! So you get my kudos because I sorta wish I had more of that in me!
Sorry punishment was built into your chores at home. My grandma was like that... and I admit it did make me better at house chores than I otherwise would have been, but it didn't really give me a high opinion of/experience with cleaning chores.
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