What's the problem? Less (on average) comparative upper body strength? Having a uterus? USING their uterus? Wearing a bra? Likely having a different fat to muscle ratio? Living longer? Is it our faster beating hearts or keener eyesight? WHAT? WHAT IS IT? WHAT MADE WOMEN UNWORTHY
Imo the answer = religion. Seasoned with the basal human desire to control others (of which women are also guilty.)
In truth, I have been in so many all-male and all-white musical ensembles, between the early 2000s and now, that it no longer surprises me.
I expect to walk into a dressing room and find a man cave (as opposed to a place where anyone could be comfortable.)
I expect to have to source my own place to relieve myself, or undress as needed, or store my food/water (rarely has anyone messed with my food/drink, but one time experiencing that was more than enough for me to keep an eye on what I ingest at all times and/or recall exactly how it was placed in the fridge.
I expect to have to clean communal areas myself, since my male counterparts across multiple jobs and musical ensembles are more than happy to let rotten food and microwave grime and ancient coffee grounds accumulate. Either that, or I expect not to use communal appliances at all (I have never once used the Keurig in the MSP break room, for example, for very good reason.)
I'm not welcome here. I'm not a PERSON here, I'm a THING. If I'm lucky the majority of male colleagues will think of me passively as a thing. If I'm not lucky there will be one or two who want to HAVE me-as-a-thing, or CONTROL me-as-a-thing. But overall when you are seen as a thing rather than a human of equal value, what comes out of your mouth is not heard, you are not considered for opportunities until after male humans have been considered first, and your needs are seen as inconveniences rather than normal asks that any non-hetero male might require. REQUIRE. Like privacy. Or a clean place to prepare food.
Ooooh I got bitter on this! Didn't really expect to, but most of the time I go through life wearing willful ignorance of all of the ways in which the environment and the culture are for Men, not Things like me.
All of that said, 95% of the men I've worked alongside in life have been really great. Kind, helpful, generally considerate, professional and gentlemanly. Many men I'd consider mentors and good influences and teachers who helped lift me up and get me where I am. That includes most of the guys in the MSP. But that doesn't change the fact that, for example, no one installed a lock on the dressing room's bathroom door until a few weeks ago (the band has had that dressing room for 50-some years.) And I STILL don't go to the bathroom in there, because the guys warm up in there, and store dishes, clothing, and instrument supplies in there. You know?
I am not welcome. Whether individuals are welcoming to me or not, that break room alone lets me know every day that my presence is an intrusion and I am an "other." And if I want to have the job, and not ruin it for myself, I have to every day put myself into this space that screams, "YOUR KIND AREN'T WANTED HERE," ignore that, and play my trombone and smile as though I own that damned castle and as though not being able to do something as basic as making a damned cup of coffee matters not one whit to me.
(Obviously many women could share endless similar experiences, and I have a zillion more than this; just cutting a slice since the tea was already poured ;D )
I'm not a musician.... but I used to be a pawnbroker in a locally-owned successful chain of 'em where I was the only woman in ANY of the stores, except the owner HERSELF, who mostly kept herself tied to their corporate office and was very protective of Her Boys [ie: all her employees... including me, I guess?] unless they (I) complained about the rampant sexual harassment, I guess.
THE SPACES, yo!! The SPACES! What HAPPENS to a SPACE that is used/controlled by dudes being dudes... what dudes, being dudes do to women without a single thought... just for the fun of it. There were cockroaches living in the Culligan water cooler.. and THE GUYS STILL USED IT FOR DRINKING WATER! Never even CONSIDERED cleaning it out. The shit-encrusted toilet they didn't worry about because they generally just used only the urinal in the employee bathroom except in "emergencies".
I'd been flirted with/come on to/touched/pinched/rubbed without my permission at work before... (I was 22 when I started working there) but it was there that I learned the difference between shitty behavior and Sexual Harassment... when they simply don't bother to hear you say, "You need to get your hands OFF ME, shut up, and LEAVE ME ALONE!" and after I finally complained... (first and only time ever) I am moved to a different store to "protect me" which also hindered my promotion schedule, whereas he had no consequences at all.
The snide comments, the way I was always second-guessed, the way they laughed and laughed when a dude came in and bee-lined for my line only so he could get close pretending he couldn't hear so I had to lean in close and then wetly whispered an act in my ear, licked my cheek and honked my breast... and when I hit his hand, pushed him away, and yelled at him to get [expletive deleted] out of my store... the guys all stopped him... and actually SERVED him and my manager told me to "just go in the stockroom if you have a problem with a customer, we'll handle it"... when I had kicked out PLENTY of people I had problems with (liars, thieves, distracted addicts, people who threatened violence, etc)... but having some nasty dude's spit on my face and having my tit grabbed was not OFFENSIVE (to them)... it was hilarious! They probably gave him a deal to thank him for the entertainment. I was then given a speech that *I* need to respect our customers.
And my job was to smile and nod, ignore the worst of it, AND (of course) do my job as if none of this stuff had any impact on my mood/day/work.
I hated all the dude-bros... but I actually really liked THE JOB itself.. which is why I stayed for so long. It was a super INTERESTING job, which I needed after a few years of brain-dead phone work.
But looking back... I really don't know how I tolerated it day-to-day. It's hard to even tell the stories because it was SO CLEAR that I was supposed to quit, rather than hire 3 more women to work with me and help change the culture.
But, back to you and your stories.... you paint a really clear picture of the hundred little ways they make you feel unwelcome/unwanted. Even otherwise VERY NICE people would get in on the "fun" of hiding porn around or IGNORING the porn hidden around, ya know? Rolling with it... because they didn't see it as "that problematic"... because we're all "adults" and objectifying women is an unconscious (and socially approved) mindset for so many men so... what's the problem? So your examples of wanting a lock on the bathroom or having privacy to change into work-attire, or to be free from sexual pressure/snide comments being treated as Specialty Requests rather than human decency.
It really is amazing what women deal with just to... live/work/be treated like/be seen as just another person rather than as An Other or Interloper or Zoo Curiosity.
I recall you describing this workplace. No idea how you tolerated it. What you describe is like 99% why I never went into food service (I know the pawn shop is different but challenge anyone to find a female waitress who hasn't experienced all that you and I have described and then some)
THE SPACES indeed! I know there are messy women out there but... I think (I guess? don't actually know) that the difference is that women are TAUGHT in the ways of cleaning? Are conditioned and trained to observe and act upon cleanliness/household chores. Do people teach their sons to fold laundry?
Jameson does his own laundry, but I notice that he often overloads the washer/dryer. Probably no one taught him not to do that/WHY not to do that. He also doesn't fold clothes neatly; his folding is sufficient but what I'm noticing is probably a difference in experience. His mother probably did his laundry until college age. I was helping mom fold clothes, cook, and clean before I was in school.
Anyway that's a sidetrack. When you really think about what women have to intentionally ignore just to do a job, or to live in pseudo-normalcy...it really is wild. We're people too...but only because we insist/persist on it.
I didn't join food service because I did phone service which paid a little more, had regular hours, could sit to work, and I came home smelling like flopsweat rather than french fries... but I've never known a woman who worked in food service as a lone woman among a company of only men. I think there is safety and security in public settings and mixed company, but not always.
I also worked in an office of 50 women and 2 men. And those dudes were given a hard time as well, but it was a totally different way. Mostly they weren't allowed to talk to women who were not CERTAIN women who felt they could control/dominate those men's social time/attention. The men never got censured for who they talked to... the OTHER WOMEN got censured for talking to 'The Boys' (or The Boys talking to them) and accused of flirting rather than working. Not in a Work Censure sorta way, no paperwork. Just gossip and if that didn't work unsigned "personal notes" that declared you were being indelicate, overstepping bounds, and stated that the guys "weren't playthings". I was the only person stupid enough to show my note to the guys and guy like, "Woah... do you know what this is?" and they were both like, "Ohhh... yeah, that's Sandy. She's... sorta protective, I guess? She just really doesn't like it when she finds out I talk to other people. Don't worry, I think she's harmless... just kinda jealous."
AND ALL THE WOMEN let it happen... let these guys be socially isolated at work and controlled by a co-worker who was territorial about our two dudes.This is so easily identified as domineering/abusive behavior except... when it's done by a woman, I guess? But its not like they were being catcalled at work, groped, have a "Which coworker would you rather bang?" list up in the breakroom sorta bullshit.
I think men and women both grow up with women-are-cleaners/men-are-dirtiers role modeled, although now that stay-at-home Dads are more prevalent, I'd hope that is changing (on the assumption those stay-at-home-dads are doing housework during the day as stay-at-home moms are expected to). I've met SO MANY MEN who can use a washer machine, but don't know that dishwashers/clotheswashers have... settings or special ways to be loaded. They're know-it-alls about computers or power tools and are so persnickety about The Correct Way to Use Machines... but never considered household appliances (vacuums, washers, dryers, ovens, crock pots, etc) worthy of taking 10 minutes to learn how to use/clean them properly/safely or even THINK of them as specialty tools.
Perhaps it's because we train women that cleaning is THEIR job and teach men fixing is THEIR job, so women don't know how to fix a leaky faucet and guys don't know how to clean out the lint filter, and we are also socialized to PROTECT these roles. Like, not to assume... but you say you noticed Jameson doesn't [X] and maybe he was never taught the subtleties, but it doesn't seem like you want to be the one to tell him he's been shortening the life of his clothes (and the machine itself) for 20+ years.
My partner did the same thing with overloading and not sorting his clothes for the washer(everything is a giant load, jeans and dress shirts and underwear and t-shirts all together... all on hot/heavy wash) but we're working on it and since he's a mechanical engineer it was pretty funny for him to be like, "WOAH, so... this machine has... needs? Like... any other machine? I never really THOUGHT about it!" He had a Super-Mom... who lived her LIFE for her kids (girls and boys both) and then gave a haphazard "This is how you do dishes/use a stove/wash clothes/mop a floor" lesson the week before they moved out.
I'll admit household cleaning was NOT in my mom's priorities. She put us kids to work ASAP... she'd do outdoor/horse stuff and inside was our job, and she didn't really care about neatness so our lackluster job was rarely even noticed.
Like, not to assume... but you say you noticed Jameson doesn't [X] and maybe he was never taught the subtleties, but it doesn't seem like you want to be the one to tell him he's been shortening the life of his clothes (and the machine itself) for 20+ years.
You're not wrong haha. There are a few reasons, I suppose.
I think he'll be butthurt if I try to mansplain him on how to do laundry at the age of 42. Like, it's not like his clothes are coming out moldy, or that we've had to replace the washer because he overloads it. It's something that I notice because I was taught not to do it, but ultimately the only reason to bring it up would be to alleviate my own pet peeve or to nitpick/nag/control his actions.
My sister once stopped me while I was cutting up a pineapple, and insisted on doing it herself because she knew a "better" way. I remember how annoyed and insulted I felt because in the context of how we were using the pineapple it didn't matter whatsoever how they were cut; she just wanted it done "her way." I am not doing that to Jameson.
An example where I DID speak up was when he used to leave the wet dish sponge in the sink after he was done with it. I waited until I was sure it was a consistent habit of his, then one day after it had been sitting in the sink for two days I told him that I'd prefer he let the sponge dry in its tray instead, and (here's the important bit) I explained why. Using two-day-old-stinky sponge for realtime illustration. Being clear that this wasn't to shame him, but to protect both of us from a potential hazard. And it hasn't been an issue since (well, it's LESS of an issue...he forgets sometimes :P)
I guess it varies (for example your mom didn't care as much; my parents would punish my sisters and I for folding laundry "wrong.") And we can't help what we're taught/conditioned with.
I can't address the rest of this because it's a busy day but appreciated reading your thoughts on these things!
Thank you for taking up this conversation and chatting with me about things that are fun and things that are also not-so-fun.
I'm that mouthy a-hole who is a bit too open with her opinions about how things could/should be done. But I'm also the sublime buddha when they give me, "That's cool... but I'm still doing it my way." that's all I need to move on from the subject.
But I also don't spend much time worrying about whether everyone is capable/comfortable expressing a simple boundary with me if my horn-in is unwanted/unacceptable/hurtful/maddening to them. I try to assume everyone is capable of setting a healthy personal boundary, because otherwise I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME in the mindset of trying to predict specific futures/reactions/etc and working toward getting the reactions *I want*/*I prefer*/*I think is best* which (to me) feels way more manipulative/controlling than being a bit forward/carefree with "my free advice".
So I run a bit rough-shod and hope people speak up if its a problem... and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not at ALL good at Not Saying Anything, I'll Just Watch And Know It's a Mistake. I am the very WORST at that!! So you get my kudos because I sorta wish I had more of that in me!
Sorry punishment was built into your chores at home. My grandma was like that... and I admit it did make me better at house chores than I otherwise would have been, but it didn't really give me a high opinion of/experience with cleaning chores.
What's the problem?
Less (on average) comparative upper body strength?
Having a uterus?
USING their uterus?
Wearing a bra?
Likely having a different fat to muscle ratio?
Living longer?
Is it our faster beating hearts
or keener eyesight?
WHAT?
WHAT IS IT?
WHAT MADE WOMEN UNWORTHY
Imo the answer = religion. Seasoned with the basal human desire to control others (of which women are also guilty.)
In truth, I have been in so many all-male and all-white musical ensembles, between the early 2000s and now, that it no longer surprises me.
I expect to walk into a dressing room and find a man cave (as opposed to a place where anyone could be comfortable.)
I expect to have to source my own place to relieve myself, or undress as needed, or store my food/water (rarely has anyone messed with my food/drink, but one time experiencing that was more than enough for me to keep an eye on what I ingest at all times and/or recall exactly how it was placed in the fridge.
I expect to have to clean communal areas myself, since my male counterparts across multiple jobs and musical ensembles are more than happy to let rotten food and microwave grime and ancient coffee grounds accumulate. Either that, or I expect not to use communal appliances at all (I have never once used the Keurig in the MSP break room, for example, for very good reason.)
I'm not welcome here. I'm not a PERSON here, I'm a THING. If I'm lucky the majority of male colleagues will think of me passively as a thing. If I'm not lucky there will be one or two who want to HAVE me-as-a-thing, or CONTROL me-as-a-thing. But overall when you are seen as a thing rather than a human of equal value, what comes out of your mouth is not heard, you are not considered for opportunities until after male humans have been considered first, and your needs are seen as inconveniences rather than normal asks that any non-hetero male might require. REQUIRE. Like privacy. Or a clean place to prepare food.
Ooooh I got bitter on this! Didn't really expect to, but most of the time I go through life wearing willful ignorance of all of the ways in which the environment and the culture are for Men, not Things like me.
All of that said, 95% of the men I've worked alongside in life have been really great. Kind, helpful, generally considerate, professional and gentlemanly. Many men I'd consider mentors and good influences and teachers who helped lift me up and get me where I am. That includes most of the guys in the MSP. But that doesn't change the fact that, for example, no one installed a lock on the dressing room's bathroom door until a few weeks ago (the band has had that dressing room for 50-some years.) And I STILL don't go to the bathroom in there, because the guys warm up in there, and store dishes, clothing, and instrument supplies in there. You know?
I am not welcome. Whether individuals are welcoming to me or not, that break room alone lets me know every day that my presence is an intrusion and I am an "other." And if I want to have the job, and not ruin it for myself, I have to every day put myself into this space that screams, "YOUR KIND AREN'T WANTED HERE," ignore that, and play my trombone and smile as though I own that damned castle and as though not being able to do something as basic as making a damned cup of coffee matters not one whit to me.
(Obviously many women could share endless similar experiences, and I have a zillion more than this; just cutting a slice since the tea was already poured ;D )
Reply
THE SPACES, yo!! The SPACES! What HAPPENS to a SPACE that is used/controlled by dudes being dudes... what dudes, being dudes do to women without a single thought... just for the fun of it.
There were cockroaches living in the Culligan water cooler.. and THE GUYS STILL USED IT FOR DRINKING WATER! Never even CONSIDERED cleaning it out.
The shit-encrusted toilet they didn't worry about because they generally just used only the urinal in the employee bathroom except in "emergencies".
I'd been flirted with/come on to/touched/pinched/rubbed without my permission at work before... (I was 22 when I started working there) but it was there that I learned the difference between shitty behavior and Sexual Harassment... when they simply don't bother to hear you say, "You need to get your hands OFF ME, shut up, and LEAVE ME ALONE!" and after I finally complained... (first and only time ever) I am moved to a different store to "protect me" which also hindered my promotion schedule, whereas he had no consequences at all.
The snide comments, the way I was always second-guessed, the way they laughed and laughed when a dude came in and bee-lined for my line only so he could get close pretending he couldn't hear so I had to lean in close and then wetly whispered an act in my ear, licked my cheek and honked my breast... and when I hit his hand, pushed him away, and yelled at him to get [expletive deleted] out of my store... the guys all stopped him... and actually SERVED him and my manager told me to "just go in the stockroom if you have a problem with a customer, we'll handle it"... when I had kicked out PLENTY of people I had problems with (liars, thieves, distracted addicts, people who threatened violence, etc)... but having some nasty dude's spit on my face and having my tit grabbed was not OFFENSIVE (to them)... it was hilarious! They probably gave him a deal to thank him for the entertainment. I was then given a speech that *I* need to respect our customers.
And my job was to smile and nod, ignore the worst of it, AND (of course) do my job as if none of this stuff had any impact on my mood/day/work.
I hated all the dude-bros... but I actually really liked THE JOB itself.. which is why I stayed for so long. It was a super INTERESTING job, which I needed after a few years of brain-dead phone work.
But looking back... I really don't know how I tolerated it day-to-day.
It's hard to even tell the stories because it was SO CLEAR that I was supposed to quit, rather than hire 3 more women to work with me and help change the culture.
But, back to you and your stories.... you paint a really clear picture of the hundred little ways they make you feel unwelcome/unwanted. Even otherwise VERY NICE people would get in on the "fun" of hiding porn around or IGNORING the porn hidden around, ya know? Rolling with it... because they didn't see it as "that problematic"... because we're all "adults" and objectifying women is an unconscious (and socially approved) mindset for so many men so... what's the problem?
So your examples of wanting a lock on the bathroom or having privacy to change into work-attire, or to be free from sexual pressure/snide comments being treated as Specialty Requests rather than human decency.
It really is amazing what women deal with just to... live/work/be treated like/be seen as just another person rather than as An Other or Interloper or Zoo Curiosity.
Reply
THE SPACES indeed! I know there are messy women out there but...
I think (I guess? don't actually know) that the difference is that women are TAUGHT in the ways of cleaning? Are conditioned and trained to observe and act upon cleanliness/household chores. Do people teach their sons to fold laundry?
Jameson does his own laundry, but I notice that he often overloads the washer/dryer. Probably no one taught him not to do that/WHY not to do that. He also doesn't fold clothes neatly; his folding is sufficient but what I'm noticing is probably a difference in experience. His mother probably did his laundry until college age. I was helping mom fold clothes, cook, and clean before I was in school.
Anyway that's a sidetrack. When you really think about what women have to intentionally ignore just to do a job, or to live in pseudo-normalcy...it really is wild. We're people too...but only because we insist/persist on it.
Reply
I also worked in an office of 50 women and 2 men.
And those dudes were given a hard time as well, but it was a totally different way. Mostly they weren't allowed to talk to women who were not CERTAIN women who felt they could control/dominate those men's social time/attention. The men never got censured for who they talked to... the OTHER WOMEN got censured for talking to 'The Boys' (or The Boys talking to them) and accused of flirting rather than working. Not in a Work Censure sorta way, no paperwork. Just gossip and if that didn't work unsigned "personal notes" that declared you were being indelicate, overstepping bounds, and stated that the guys "weren't playthings".
I was the only person stupid enough to show my note to the guys and guy like, "Woah... do you know what this is?" and they were both like, "Ohhh... yeah, that's Sandy. She's... sorta protective, I guess? She just really doesn't like it when she finds out I talk to other people. Don't worry, I think she's harmless... just kinda jealous."
AND ALL THE WOMEN let it happen... let these guys be socially isolated at work and controlled by a co-worker who was territorial about our two dudes.This is so easily identified as domineering/abusive behavior except... when it's done by a woman, I guess? But its not like they were being catcalled at work, groped, have a "Which coworker would you rather bang?" list up in the breakroom sorta bullshit.
I think men and women both grow up with women-are-cleaners/men-are-dirtiers role modeled, although now that stay-at-home Dads are more prevalent, I'd hope that is changing (on the assumption those stay-at-home-dads are doing housework during the day as stay-at-home moms are expected to).
I've met SO MANY MEN who can use a washer machine, but don't know that dishwashers/clotheswashers have... settings or special ways to be loaded. They're know-it-alls about computers or power tools and are so persnickety about The Correct Way to Use Machines... but never considered household appliances (vacuums, washers, dryers, ovens, crock pots, etc) worthy of taking 10 minutes to learn how to use/clean them properly/safely or even THINK of them as specialty tools.
Perhaps it's because we train women that cleaning is THEIR job and teach men fixing is THEIR job, so women don't know how to fix a leaky faucet and guys don't know how to clean out the lint filter, and we are also socialized to PROTECT these roles. Like, not to assume... but you say you noticed Jameson doesn't [X] and maybe he was never taught the subtleties, but it doesn't seem like you want to be the one to tell him he's been shortening the life of his clothes (and the machine itself) for 20+ years.
My partner did the same thing with overloading and not sorting his clothes for the washer(everything is a giant load, jeans and dress shirts and underwear and t-shirts all together... all on hot/heavy wash) but we're working on it and since he's a mechanical engineer it was pretty funny for him to be like, "WOAH, so... this machine has... needs? Like... any other machine? I never really THOUGHT about it!"
He had a Super-Mom... who lived her LIFE for her kids (girls and boys both) and then gave a haphazard "This is how you do dishes/use a stove/wash clothes/mop a floor" lesson the week before they moved out.
I'll admit household cleaning was NOT in my mom's priorities. She put us kids to work ASAP... she'd do outdoor/horse stuff and inside was our job, and she didn't really care about neatness so our lackluster job was rarely even noticed.
Reply
You're not wrong haha. There are a few reasons, I suppose.
I think he'll be butthurt if I try to mansplain him on how to do laundry at the age of 42. Like, it's not like his clothes are coming out moldy, or that we've had to replace the washer because he overloads it. It's something that I notice because I was taught not to do it, but ultimately the only reason to bring it up would be to alleviate my own pet peeve or to nitpick/nag/control his actions.
My sister once stopped me while I was cutting up a pineapple, and insisted on doing it herself because she knew a "better" way. I remember how annoyed and insulted I felt because in the context of how we were using the pineapple it didn't matter whatsoever how they were cut; she just wanted it done "her way." I am not doing that to Jameson.
An example where I DID speak up was when he used to leave the wet dish sponge in the sink after he was done with it. I waited until I was sure it was a consistent habit of his, then one day after it had been sitting in the sink for two days I told him that I'd prefer he let the sponge dry in its tray instead, and (here's the important bit) I explained why. Using two-day-old-stinky sponge for realtime illustration. Being clear that this wasn't to shame him, but to protect both of us from a potential hazard. And it hasn't been an issue since (well, it's LESS of an issue...he forgets sometimes :P)
I guess it varies (for example your mom didn't care as much; my parents would punish my sisters and I for folding laundry "wrong.") And we can't help what we're taught/conditioned with.
I can't address the rest of this because it's a busy day but appreciated reading your thoughts on these things!
Reply
I'm that mouthy a-hole who is a bit too open with her opinions about how things could/should be done. But I'm also the sublime buddha when they give me, "That's cool... but I'm still doing it my way." that's all I need to move on from the subject.
But I also don't spend much time worrying about whether everyone is capable/comfortable expressing a simple boundary with me if my horn-in is unwanted/unacceptable/hurtful/maddening to them. I try to assume everyone is capable of setting a healthy personal boundary, because otherwise I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME in the mindset of trying to predict specific futures/reactions/etc and working toward getting the reactions *I want*/*I prefer*/*I think is best* which (to me) feels way more manipulative/controlling than being a bit forward/carefree with "my free advice".
So I run a bit rough-shod and hope people speak up if its a problem... and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not at ALL good at Not Saying Anything, I'll Just Watch And Know It's a Mistake. I am the very WORST at that!! So you get my kudos because I sorta wish I had more of that in me!
Sorry punishment was built into your chores at home. My grandma was like that... and I admit it did make me better at house chores than I otherwise would have been, but it didn't really give me a high opinion of/experience with cleaning chores.
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