Trying to see the other side... Male Rights Activists

[geek_dragon]

So I've been poking around reading articles at and linked to from http://www.the-spearhead.com/

I want to see their points and if they have any valid ones.  It's hard because most of the commentors and articles are centered around how women are evil creatures inacable of loving and evilly withholding sex for large amounts of money.

And there are

Comments

[anonymous]

I meant that men don't owe women protection. They can provide it if they want to, but they don't owe it. If I see a woman being attacked by someone, I don't have to intervene and unless she is a family member or close friend, I probably won't.

It's not any man's or woman's fault that other men or women are sexual aggressors. There are plenty of women who have been convicted of sexual abuse, usually involving abuse of children that were placed in their care, but the media chooses to gloss over this and focus on men, while the courts give incredibly light sentences to female sex criminals compared to their male counterparts. It is the disproportionate focus on male perpetrators and female victims, as part of a larger effort to demonize men as a group, as well as the blatant double standards in court, that MRAs oppose.

If one in six women report being raped or almost raped during their lifetimes, but only one in one thousand men report having raped or attempted to rape during their lifetimes, how am I to resolve the contradiction? They can't all be telling the truth, can they? Rape statistics should be compiled from court and police records, not personal anecdotes.

[anonymous]

Men employed as police officers are, naturally, an exception to this rule since it is their job to protect the public and they are paid with the expectation that they carry it out as described.

[geek_dragon]

Well commiting crimes isn't something to brag about, and if you had commited a crime, would you really reveal it on a survey, what if someone tracked it back to you? Also, I'm sure the rapists justify it in their minds somehow. Most people don't go out to do bad things. Like those freaky sicide murders where the murderer is trying to spare the victim pain. It wasn't murder, it was an act of love and protection.

I would totally help someone being attacked, even if just by calling the police, no matter the age, class, race, or gender. That is the decent thing to do. If you don't want to live where might makes right, one has to look out for others.

[anonymous]

That's exactly my point; you can't just survey people about such serious questions and expect truthful answers. Instead, one should turn to more reliable sources like police and court records.

It's up to you to decide who you want to help and who you don't. We all have something to offer to others, and we all have things we need from others. Those who are denied what they need may decide that they don't feel like providing what others need, and that is their freedom. It is very much a double-edged sword, but it is something of which all stable societies need to be aware.

[geek_dragon]

But in this case police and court records aren't reliable.
And most rapes don't get reported at all, so surves are needed to get the real stats.

Durh.

And I don't think not getting laid constitutes a good reason to not defend fellow citizens from violence. And not getting laid isn't a license to rape someone.

[anonymous]

How can you say most rapes don't get reported? If they weren't reported, then how do you know they happened? That's like saying most matter is dark matter. It might be true, but you have absolutely no way of knowing with our current technology. At least police and court records establish real facts learned from actual investigations. They have their flaws, but they always trump personal anecdotes when it comes to reliability.

It's not your call to decide what is and is not a good reason for another person to decide that he/she doesn't want to stick his/her neck out for others. You can decide what are good reasons for yourself, and only for yourself, to make those decisions.

I have never even hinted at thinking that not getting laid is any kind of license to rape, but of course I can only make that decision for myself. I also didn't specifically have getting laid in mind when I spoke about people being "denied what they need." One thing that almost all people need is to be valued and respected by their society, and not subjected to constant demonization in the media and legal and social double standards. People who are denied this may decide that they don't want to contribute to that society, and that should be a perfectly understandable decision.

[geek_dragon]

Both genders are demonized in the media, and subject to social double standards.

I don't know enough about all the laws and all the court cases to decide whether either gender has double standards in the legal system, and I suspect there isn't. Or there is a small few niggly things.

Also, you're using a false presumption. Just because we can't prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt doesn't mean it's false, especially when you react to evidence with what could be called the logiocal fallacies of fervernt denial and exclusion.

There are surveys, studies, and ancedotes galore as evidence about non-reported rape. But most important of all is the LOGIC behind why rapes would go unreported.

In the case of women, their virginity is valued, and their sexual purity is valued. So they are now "used goods", "tarnished", "trash". Why would they want to tell anyone about how they've been broken and devalued? In the case of men, how can a "weak" female overpower a "strong" male? It is shaming to have been overpowered.

Most people have heard stories or know somene who was raped and laughed off by the police, so what is the point or reporting?

Rape is so traumatic that people can't deal with it. They might not be able to get out and report it to the cops.

[geek_dragon]

As to the days women needed to be a virgin... look at the spearhead and see non-virgin women reffered to as dump and pumps. Also, look into the tenants of Christianity. You have heard that there are lots of christians out there right? I'm sure other religions have similar rules on sex before marriage.

I don't have access to academic journals at the moment, so I'll just be using google.

Here is an article, read the whole thing please to see my point, about a botched investigation, and how women feel like telling the police about their rapes is useless. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/09/gail-sherwood-jailed-campaigners

Why would you report if you didn't think it would do any good, and why would you report if you expected nothing but verbal harrassment?

No, we can't agree on which one lasts longer or does more damage to one's future.

[geek_dragon]

Well actually if you read the whole article there is evidence that she's not lying. Like what happened to that pen knife?

Just because we don't agree doen't mean I'm being unreasonable. I don't think you understand the side effects of rape, or how shame, anxiety and what not can affect a person's life. You seem to have an inability to understand emotions in people, so I can see how media and words and records are more important to you than a feeling of safety, well being, confidence, freedom from fear or freedom from shame.

Just because I understand your point doesn't mean I agree, but at least I CAN and DO understand your point.

[geek_dragon]

If you understand those emotions why do you pretend to not understand why they would be factors in not reporting rape?

Rape can destroy a reputation because if it gets out, people will whisper that she is a whore and a slut, and weak, and other crap. It takes many rape victims years before they can have sex again like a normal person.
Things like going to the store, out of their house, or being around men are hard.

I understand both are horrible. I don't think it's productive to quantify which one is worse and by how much.

[geek_dragon]

and police officers aren't perfect defenders of justice
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16890838/detail.html

[geek_dragon]

Wow lots of corrupt police:
http://www.statejournal.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=78176

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/police_investigating_sex_abuse.html

http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/ci_14866154

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/longtime-trooper-wife-die-in-apparent-citrus-county-murder-suicide/1086698

https://secure.forumcomm.com/?publisher_ID=1&article_id=275522&CFID=174597792&CFTOKEN=77669205

http://www.montereyherald.com/news/ci_14890141?nclick_check=1

http://www.upnorthlive.com/news/story.aspx?list=~\news\lists\local&id=444224

http://www.dailymail.com/News/201004140870

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/D_C_-police-lieutenant-charged-with-sexual-assault-90892349.html

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/apr/14/former-detective-setenced-prison-assaulting-prosti/

http://www.kptv.com/news/23178320/detail.html ***

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2010/apr/16/ex-hamblen-deputy-sentenced-188-months-civil-right/

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Flagstaff-police-officer-arrested-for-hitting-girlfriend-at-Country-Thunder-91085274.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/josh-white/us-capitol-police-officer-arre.html

http://www.ajc.com/news/sheriffs-investigator-accused-of-465144.html

http://www2.dothaneagle.com/dea/news/crime_courts/article/former_sheriffs_chaplain_pleads_guilty_to_sex_crimes/145882/

https://secure.forumcomm.com/?publisher_ID=1&article_id=275522&CFID=174597792&CFTOKEN=77669205

Most of these links are about cops being charged WITH sexual crimes.