Re: The Master at WorkdremwkrMarch 5 2007, 00:42:58 UTC
Thank you Gayle: I would add holiness in all aspects spiritual, mental, and physical (easier said than done, I might add). I still would like to know what denomination you belong to. When I think of Churches in the UK I always think of the Church of England or the Church of Scotland, or the Methodist/Calvinist decended Churches in Wales, and of course of the RCC in Ireland. I get the feeling this is not a state or as well call them in the States a "Mainline" denomination.
I have been associated with Congregations where the leadership week after week, month after month, year after year, preached, taught, and raised Holiness standards so high (eg. No children at any public OR private school-homeschooling required, Wives could not work, everyone had to keep a strict budget and accountablity for giving, no music except church music in straight 4/4 time, nothing deemed "modern" or "jiggy", no TV or movies, Girls HAD to wear dresses and cover their hair and no store bought clothes but simple shapeless prarrie dresses, no jewery, makeup, or anti grey haircoloring, no sunday school (anti-family), no sodas, no coffee, no or very little meat, whole grain foods main staple, women were considered morally weak and emotionally unstable, children needed lots of physical displine to the point of instant obedence to authority, denoncement of Alipathic and Psych Medicine, shunning and/or public denoucment of anyone that disagreeded with the leadership in anything, even personal dreams.
The holiness teachings soon became so burdensome that no one could keep them all, and even though the leadership basically did whatever they wanted to as "clerical confidences" and spent alot of time denousing the "worldly/evil" of the month, and individuals in particular that could not meet them publicly. Soon, none of the membership wanted any home visits from the leadership, because they lived in "the fear of God" and felt ashamed they could not meet the standards set and enforced. Everyone was afraid that the person in the pew next to them would "rat them out" for some minor thing.
My experences have forced me to come to the conclusion that effect holiness doctrine is not a long list of NOs to be enforced, but positive things that offer the difference of happier living. I have come to understand that the Holy spirit works differently with individuals according to needs not wants. We all have spiritual needs or fundamental lessions to learn, all (or most of us) WANT complete perfection, that is fine to have as an ideal, but attempting to be perfect in all things taught instantly, is both unwise and a folly. The perfection in found in the true spiritual vision of within each of us, "to thine own self be true", NOT what Pastor X, or even fellow persons in the pew demands. The problem with the NO approach is similar to alcoholic US sailors while underway at sea, they are sober, but the underlying issues that made them alcholics are avoided at all costs, there is even a term for it "Dry Drunks". So many people are not interested in Church at all becuase of hurt and bad experiences they have had because the preacher's and congragant's firery drive for "holiness". I would say that the greatest enemy of the Church was not non-christians, or satan directly, but the Christians in it themselves. To me Holiness=Love, kindness, long-suffering, doing the right thing at personal cost. Not something to beat the daylights out of the imperfect "unholy". Even the greatest missionary John Wesley found that his doctrines, ironclad methods, and single minded persuit of "Christian Perfection and Holiness" never got him anywhere close in real life and carried personal self-condemnation for it. I would say holiness appropriate to what is most vital to our own soals that we can learn to do, even in small steps, even just making the efforts counts in in our Book of Life as rightousness. Not heroics or epic things, but day to day things. What do you think?
I would add holiness in all aspects spiritual, mental, and physical (easier said than done, I might add). I still would like to know what denomination you belong to. When I think of Churches in the UK I always think of the Church of England or the Church of Scotland, or the Methodist/Calvinist decended Churches in Wales, and of course of the RCC in Ireland. I get the feeling this is not a state or as well call them in the States a "Mainline" denomination.
I have been associated with Congregations where the leadership week after week, month after month, year after year, preached, taught, and raised Holiness standards so high (eg. No children at any public OR private school-homeschooling required, Wives could not work, everyone had to keep a strict budget and accountablity for giving, no music except church music in straight 4/4 time, nothing deemed "modern" or "jiggy", no TV or movies, Girls HAD to wear dresses and cover their hair and no store bought clothes but simple shapeless prarrie dresses, no jewery, makeup, or anti grey haircoloring, no sunday school (anti-family), no sodas, no coffee, no or very little meat, whole grain foods main staple, women were considered morally weak and emotionally unstable, children needed lots of physical displine to the point of instant obedence to authority, denoncement of Alipathic and Psych Medicine, shunning and/or public denoucment of anyone that disagreeded with the leadership in anything, even personal dreams.
The holiness teachings soon became so burdensome that no one could keep them all, and even though the leadership basically did whatever they wanted to as "clerical confidences" and spent alot of time denousing the "worldly/evil" of the month, and individuals in particular that could not meet them publicly. Soon, none of the membership wanted any home visits from the leadership, because they lived in "the fear of God" and felt ashamed they could not meet the standards set and enforced. Everyone was afraid that the person in the pew next to them would "rat them out" for some minor thing.
My experences have forced me to come to the conclusion that effect holiness doctrine is not a long list of NOs to be enforced, but positive things that offer the difference of happier living. I have come to understand that the Holy spirit works differently with individuals according to needs not wants. We all have spiritual needs or fundamental lessions to learn, all (or most of us) WANT complete perfection, that is fine to have as an ideal, but attempting to be perfect in all things taught instantly, is both unwise and a folly. The perfection in found in the true spiritual vision of within each of us, "to thine own self be true", NOT what Pastor X, or even fellow persons in the pew demands. The problem with the NO approach is similar to alcoholic US sailors while underway at sea, they are sober, but the underlying issues that made them alcholics are avoided at all costs, there is even a term for it "Dry Drunks". So many people are not interested in Church at all becuase of hurt and bad experiences they have had because the preacher's and congragant's firery drive for "holiness". I would say that the greatest enemy of the Church was not non-christians, or satan directly, but the Christians in it themselves. To me Holiness=Love, kindness, long-suffering, doing the right thing at personal cost. Not something to beat the daylights out of the imperfect "unholy". Even the greatest missionary John Wesley found that his doctrines, ironclad methods, and single minded persuit of "Christian Perfection and Holiness" never got him anywhere close in real life and carried personal self-condemnation for it. I would say holiness appropriate to what is most vital to our own soals that we can learn to do, even in small steps, even just making the efforts counts in in our Book of Life as rightousness. Not heroics or epic things, but day to day things. What do you think?
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