My Thoughts on Proposition 8
What ever happened to a separation of church and state?
Marriage is a culturally and socially relative term. What right does a government have to enforce it's definition and limitation of marriage on a nation of people with diverse cultural and social backgrounds? Government should only be concerned with government matters such as taxation, health ( Read more... )
Marriage is a culturally and socially relative term. What right does a government have to enforce it's definition and limitation of marriage on a nation of people with diverse cultural and social backgrounds? Government should only be concerned with government matters such as taxation, health ( Read more... )
What is a bigger injustice? Having majority rule, or allowing vocal minorities to dictate to the majority? Gays used to be persecuted and hated, and that was morally wrong. "Love the sinner, hate the sin," is a Christian mantra. We've grown to the point where we've de-criminalized aspects of gay behavior, such as sodomy, even though we find it repugnant. The idea is that it's an individual liberty that we should not infringe (public health aspects aside). So that's fine. Unfortunately gays won't stop there.
Rights in this society are not granted to COUPLES. They are granted to INDIVIDUALS. Gay individuals have the exact same rights as straight individuals. What you are seeking is a change to an institution. It is dishonest to frame it as a rights issue.
It's true that public opinion is rising for the idea of gay marriage. The gay lobby has been very active. But you even used the word "uphold" regarding gay marriage laws. The gay lobby has not been fighting fair. They have never won at the ballot box, so they get these leftist activist judges in place who decide cases that create precedent for gay marriage, sometimes in direct opposition to the voters of that state, who then (in Prop 8's case) have to actually go BACK and RE-VOTE the same thing in again as a constitutional amendment in order to overrule the judges. Voters keep saying "we don't want this" but the gay lobby will do anything it takes to get what they want. Talk about forcing your views on others.
I don't think married couples without children (and I know several) should be banned. They're at least providing a role model (man + woman) for marriage. But they're not contributing to the next generation, which is the purpose of marriage. I believe it's ridiculous to believe that kids can be raised just as well outside of marriage as within it. What on earth could you possibly base that on?
You may find the slippery slope argument ridiculous (all in your position do), but I don't see why. As I said, they will use the exact same arguments that gays use today. People, maybe even you, will make counter-arguments but at the end of the day it will all boil down to "I don't believe that's morally right," which is exactly where we are today, and yet you see how close we are to jumping off THAT cliff. Watch and see.
Similarly, your point that churches can decide who to do marriages for and who not to, doesn't work. As soon as churches refuse to wed a gay couple (after their state enshrines gay marriage into law), they will be sued. The gay lobby will go after the churches for being evil, and discriminatory, and bigoted, etc. Gay employees who are "married" but not in the eyes of their employer, the church, will sue for benefits or damages to their self-esteem, etc. Photographers (this has actually happened already) who refuse to shoot gay marriages will also be sued, and go out of business. Churches will shut their doors as they lose lawsuits, and/or to avoid having to conduct gay ceremonies. It will get real ugly, real fast. This is a guarantee.
As a Christian I love gays as much as anyone else, and would like for them to be happy. I empathize that they cannot marry the people whom they love. But I don't think society should be re-invented just to ease their pain. There is too much at stake, too many other variables in the mix.
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I'm not understanding your point here. Things change; it is the nature of the world. "Institutions" of society have mutated countless times, and yet society is still here.
I don't think married couples without children (and I know several) should be banned. They're at least providing a role model (man + woman) for marriage. But they're not contributing to the next generation, which is the purpose of marriage. I believe it's ridiculous to believe that kids can be raised just as well outside of marriage as within it. What on earth could you possibly base that on?
50% divorce rate. Your way is not working either. By your logic, 50% of the kids now are *just as bad off* as if they were raised by a couple of d00ds, since they are not in a traditional "marriage"-oriented family. Society is not falling apart. I see no Proposition 9 to force an end to the practice of divorce. Until the "Protect Marriage" lobby introduces and fully supports such a referendum, they are only practicing bigotry and discrimination against ~10 percent of the population.
The gay lobby will go after the churches for being evil, and discriminatory, and bigoted, etc.
Exactly. Because they are.
Gay employees who are "married" but not in the eyes of their employer, the church, will sue for benefits or damages to their self-esteem, etc.
Incorrect; they will sue for damages *to them* due to denial of service, but courts will likely throw them out unless the will of the people has been expressed through laws preventing such discrimination. In California that might be the case, but for most of the country this is not an issue (yet).
Photographers (this has actually happened already) who refuse to shoot gay marriages will also be sued, and go out of business.
Welcome to Capitalism! Enjoy the view.
Churches will shut their doors as they lose lawsuits, and/or to avoid having to conduct gay ceremonies. It will get real ugly, real fast. This is a guarantee.
Yay! I, for one, Welcome our new atheist logic-using overlords.
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You can be fine with all these changes that are coming, but at least be honest and acknowledge that people who are opposed have very valid reasons for their opposition (i.e. not bigotry, homophobia, etc.). They see a tidal wave of changes coming unlike anything in history and it scares the hell out of them.
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