Sam in S8 | A Short Reflection
Hi folks! I know it has been quiet around these parts lately, mainly because I spent most of my summer hiatus busy with non-SPN related stuff. However, these last couple of weeks, I have also been writing in fits and starts on my missing S8 reviews, and even though I am far from being finished with any of them, I still hope I get at least some of
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TBH, (like Carver apparently *wink*) I'm having trouble keeping the laws of canon and canon details straight these days. And from reading here, it just occurred to me that perhaps it's not just a matter of my brain being too full but because canon no longer adheres to its own logic (ugh, Taxi Driver). Memorizing random, contradictory facts isn't my forte.
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I hear you! It's difficult to suddenly switch to casual viewing, after 8 years of looking at something with an analytical mind. Looking past the surface of Supernatural has been incredibly rewarding for so long, but lately it has become incredibly frustrating, and that puts a damper even on my casual enjoyment of the show.
I just started a S8 re-watch last night
How you can stomach a S8 rewatch so soon after the season finished, I will never know. I doubt I will rewatch the season any time soon, if ever.
it just occurred to me that perhaps it's not just a matter of my brain being too full but because canon no longer adheres to its own logic (ugh, Taxi Driver)
That might very well be. You know, I really don't mind the occasional retcon or canon error. Given how complex and vast Supernatural canon is, I can't blame the writers for being forgetful of the details. However, an episode like Taxi Driver demonstrated such an utter disregard for even the most basic canon, that I have to fundamentally question the writers' competence and overall commitment to the story.
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There was such a clear break, tonally and narratively, between the first and the second half of the season, it seemed like the show switched showrunners mid-season. I think I read somewhere that Singer put his foot down, but I can't find the source at the moment.
I wouldn't be so certain that Singer is the one who should be credited. Apparently in a recent interview or convention (Francy mentioned it to me and I can't remember which) he stated he prefers season eight to season seven. He also took credit for the awful reconciliation process that occurred in Torn and Frayed. By the sounds of it Singer is just as much to blame for the mess that is season eight as Carver is.
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He also took credit for the awful reconciliation process that occurred in Torn and Frayed. prefers season eight to season seven. He also took credit for the awful reconciliation process that occurred in Torn and Frayed. By the sounds of it Singer is just as much to blame for the mess that is season eight as Carver is.
Well, it really depends. I am not going to argue that the 'reconciliation' in Torn and Frayed was awful, but it was the starting point for Sam and Dean to get back on track. Maybe, if Carver had his way, the bickering and fighting and pettiness had continued. So, if Singer forced the 'reconciliation' - Torn and Frayed really doesn't deserve that name, though - so they could go back to Sam and Dean being actual brothers, he is to be credited for the sudden turnaround after all. But I guess we'll never know for sure. I'm going to get the S8 companion just to find out if there is something about the plans for the seasonal structure in it.
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So, if Singer forced the 'reconciliation' - Torn and Frayed really doesn't deserve that name, though - so they could go back to Sam and Dean being actual brothers, he is to be credited for the sudden turnaround after all. But I guess we'll never know for sure. I'm going to get the S8 companion just to find out if there is something about the plans for the seasonal structure in it.
Yeah I get what you're saying but I don't know the fact he said he prefers season eight to seven suggests that he was pleased with eight overall. I of course don't know about the back room politics, but if he had the power to 'put his foot down' why didn't he do so earlier instead of allowing the first half of the season to get so bad? I mean if this year is anything to go by where at Comic Con Jared had claimed to read five scripts I think it was? and Misha mentioned something about eight in total he would have had plenty of time to fix up the first half. Unless of course the reason for them being so far in advance this year is that Singer wanted to ensure he could do just that with season nine :D. But then if he is censoring Carver so much why not just announce him as show runner? :s
And even then with episodes like Taxi Driver and The Great Escapist the second half of season nine was far from superb either. You know watching S5 which I do adore faults and all and noticing all of the mytharc faults and strange characterisation in the first half of the season. It makes me wonder while everyone contributed of course was Kim Manners (RIP) the glue that tied everything together and made sure things flowed nicely (with the odd exception here and there) the way they did in S1-4.
And if you do get the season eight companion and it mentions anything let me know
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But then if he is censoring Carver so much why not just announce him as show runner?
Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe Singer prefers to be in the background. He was never official co-showrunner with Eric Kripke or Sera Gamble either, even though we know that his opinion did have a lot of weight with them as well. I would actually have expected Ben Edlund to step up as showrunner, but maybe he didn't want it either? It's all just guessing and hearsay, since we only have limited insight. Even interviews do not tell us everything, because people tend to give 'politcal' answers to questions. It's not like Singer would come out and publicly say S8 sucked, even if he thought that. LOL
And even then with episodes like Taxi Driver and The Great Escapist the second half of season nine was far from superb either.
Oh, I know that. But at least Sam and Dean's characterisation wasn't off-the-charts OOC anymore. It still lacked layers and nuances and continuity, but the characters felt more natural again.
It makes me wonder while everyone contributed of course was Kim Manners (RIP) the glue that tied everything together
I am pretty sure that Kim Manners was a major stabilising influence, but I don't know how much he was involved in the planning/writing process. The writing team sits in LA and Kim Manners acted as the person in charge in Vancouver. It's difficult to discern how much he contributed to narrative integrity and continuity.
By the way, I know you're having your S5 marathon at the moment. I'm not sure if you're reading through the old episode threads on Buffyforums, but if you do, I'd like you to ignore my reviews there and instead read them here on LJ. I often expand my reviews and work on better structuring/grammar/spelling in the weeks after I posted on BF. Especially my Dark Side of the Moon review got a major overhaul after I posted it on BF. LOL
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Heh don't be! I admire your preservation considering how much you hated S8. When I hate something it puts me right off writing, which is why after The Great Escapist despite plans to do so I could not motivate myself to write about Clip Show and Sacrifice. So you deserve a clap on the back I say :D
Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe Singer prefers to be in the background. He was never official co-showrunner with Eric Kripke or Sera Gamble either, even though we know that his opinion did have a lot of weight with them as well. I would actually have expected Ben Edlund to step up as showrunner, but maybe he didn't want it either?
Sorry I got caught up a bit rambling about possible speculations, I have such a bad habit of rambling at times *blushes*. You know one of the biggest problems I have with the show is that in recent years it feels like they're constantly treading over old ground as you rightly said S9 spoilers make it sound like a rehash of S4 and S6. Maybe the reason for bringing back Carver was the old guard (Singer, Edlund etc) knew they were out of fresh ideas and hoped he'd bring something to the table. But of course so many speculations about what went on, but sadly most likely we'll never know :(
By the way, I know you're having your S5 marathon at the moment. I'm not sure if you're reading through the old episode threads on Buffyforums, but if you do, I'd like you to ignore my reviews there and instead read them here on LJ. I often expand my reviews and work on better structuring/grammar/spelling in the weeks after I posted on BF. Especially my Dark Side of the Moon review got a major overhaul after I posted it on BF. LOL
I've actually been reading both the Buffyforums discussion thread and your reviews here on LJ (feels like a stalker haha). I love seeing other peoples opinions on episode shortly after rewatching and the BF members and your friends comments are the only sources I know of from that time :)
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I am the same. Writing becomes a chore and worse, by dwelling on an episode I didn't like, I become even more annoyed with it. Sometimes it's just better to push past it and not give it too much thought. LOL
By the way, I read a discussion on another journal this morning that supports the impression that the mess that was the first half of S8 was mainly caused by Carver. Here's the link to the comments I am talking about, in case you're interested:
http://cheebles.livejournal.com/38787.html?thread=742787#t742787
I can't say how accurate the information in that discussion is, I didn't check out the source material, but it kinda fits with the Carver interviews I read back in early S8.
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Indeed. Of course there are times such as The Great Escapist for me when it is a great to write to just unburden your mind of the things troubling you. But then when the rant is over show leaves me so angry it's hard to get back into a good zone you know? Thus my failure to write after that episode. I'm sure it was the same with you and Taxi Driver. *hug*
I can't say how accurate the information in that discussion is, I didn't check out the source material, but it kinda fits with the Carver interviews I read back in early S8.
Ah that was interesting and I have heard similar things myself namely Jared's unhappiness about Sam's decision at the beginning of the season and Carver's statement we just have to accept it. Don't get me wrong in my comments I haven't been trying to absolve Carver of blame he is the show runner and at the end of the day it is his job to not let things get as bad as they are.
I'm just a bit wary of accrediting all of the faults of the season to Carver and giving Singer the credit for what works. As I said before if he truly had the power to put his foot down about the things going wrong, well I can't help but wonder why on earth didn't he do so sooner? And as we've discussed while I don't have the same love for S7 you do, I can certainly appreciate the fact Gamble had a clear vision that unfolded throughout. So when Singer said he prefers season eight to season seven... Well like I said I'm just a bit wary of absolving him of all blame when it comes to the faults of the season. Of course that is just me :) Maybe you're all right... I suppose we'll never truly know what went on backstage lol.
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