Buffy/Spike, Consent, and S6

[gabrielleabelle]

Trigger warning! This post deals with the AR in SR as well as other examples of questionable consent during S6.

From the AR to consent issues in S6, in general. This post is gonna lay out the instances of questionable consent in the Buffy/Spike relationship of S6. Some of these examples are often-discussed by fans. Some aren't. I want to try to

Comments

[shipperx]

I know you don't like the mention of the contiuation thing that cannot be named, but I would be interested in your take on the consent issues in that thing too.

As for the AR. I read opinions on that one. It's something worth a lot of thought and is a multi-layered subject. But it's such a minefield that I usually just read without comment.

*edited because a minefield and a mindfield wouldn't be the same thing...

[gabrielleabelle]

Without having read S8, I'm really not able to comment on it properly. Especially as, to my understanding, it deals with mystical issues, which are a bit fiddly when trying to apply real-world consent standards (see the disagreement over Willow's mindwipe of Tara and the ensuing sex).

*edited because a minefield and a mindfield wouldn't be the same thing...

lol!

[blackfrancine]

I think the SR allows us to view this as a commentary on how harmful the seduction trope is.

Yep. This is what I get from it too. It seems to me like a commentary on rape culture. On the conflation of seduction and rape. And on the fact that those two things are so thoroughly conflated by rape culture that even women--or the person being seduced/potentially raped--has trouble telling them apart.

It's pretty disturbing.

[gabrielleabelle]

*nods*

For one, the Wrecked and Gone scenes are just hot. Really, I find them hot, questionable consent an all. And that's a little fucked up. The AR is decidedly not hot, but when you look at the basic elements of Spike's behavior, it's similar.

[blackfrancine]

Exactly. I feel the same way. I even think Dead Things is hot. I know it's fucked up--but, man. I do. And it sort of freaks me out when I look at my own definitions of sexiness and seduction and how close they are to the really messed up situation between Buffy and Spike.

[ms_scarletibis]

The closest we come is the fellatio attempt in Gone, and that is more of an act of appeasement rather than taking her own pleasure. So, then the question: Was Spike raped or sexually assaulted by Buffy in Smashed or Gone? Again, it's hard to say.

In "Older and Far Away," Spike says to Buffy, "I'll let you blow out my candles," which implies (in my opinion) that it was more of a treat for her than him. In addition to that, Spike's a romantic--I don't think that his request of something more included being mounted with no warning. With the exclusion of the Boxer Rebellion, never before do we see Spike have sex or make love any place other than a bedroom, and we don't see him initiate any fights beforehand as well.

Therefore, I think it's safe to say that at the very least, it was sexual assault.

I have other thoughts percolating on this (or rather, additional thoughts...), but I have yet to properly expound upon them.

[blackfrancine]

"I'll let you blow out my candles," which implies (in my opinion) that it was more of a treat for her than him.

I sort of think this was just him being a smart ass and seizing on the *blowing* birthday trope. Because, ya know, it was Buffy's birthday. So she was gonna be blowing out candles. If anything, I think it shows that he's generally eager for fellatio. I mean, however jokingly, he's asking for it.

In addition to that, Spike's a romantic--I don't think that his request of something more included being mounted with no warning.

And--I really am sorry to be disagreeable--but I don't agree with this either. Spike had thrown out his romantic tendencies after Tabula Rasa. When Buffy wasn't responding to his sensitivity, he busted out all his jerkiest moves, including calling her names (a tease), telling her she had no one but him, implying that he was only with her because of the status of screwing a slayer, and cramming his hand up her skirt despite her protests. These aren't the moves of *romantic* Spike.

[ms_scarletibis]

I sort of think this was just him being a smart ass and seizing on the *blowing* birthday trope. Because, ya know, it was Buffy's birthday.

But to say that he'll "let" her do it--you don't find that phrasing to be odd? Why not "You can blow out my candles"? Why does he have to give her permission to do so? He's not asking her to do it as a favor--he's saying that she is allowed to do so. If he wanted to make an innuendo birthday joke, why not offer to eat her cake or something? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Spike had thrown out his romantic tendencies after Tabula Rasa. When Buffy wasn't responding to his sensitivity, he busted out all his jerkiest moves, including calling her names (a tease), telling her she had no one but him, implying that he was only with her because of the status of screwing a slayer, and cramming his hand up her skirt despite her protests. These aren't the moves of *romantic* Spike. I think that depends on one's assessment of the situation. Here's mine

[deird1]

I'm willing to bet he would have liked the opportunity to romance Buffy instead of getting fucked by her in some dilapidated building.

I don't see it. Spike's idea of "romance" tends to involve lots of rope, beating each other up, and general slaughter... and as much kinky sex as possible.

[rebcake]

An interesting point came up in my discussions - about how incensed the S&M crowd were about how the whole thing was depicted. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that Spike's continual "stop me's" could be construed as a plea that she do just that (if she really means it) due to the lack of anything like a safe word. Making him stop is something he's pretty confident she can do, based on years of previous dealings.

He's been around awhile. I suspect he has some notion of just how treacherous those waters are. (Though we don't really see him depicted as a sexually adventurous guy before Buffy, as Angelus clearly was, so I'm assuming his knowledge of edgy sexual practices with no actual evidence. I just like to think it of him. What? Like I'm the only one?)

[gabrielleabelle]

Interesting. Though the BDSM crowd typically relies on SSC which require explicit consensual guidelines to be laid out before any actual sex.

Making him stop is something he's pretty confident she can do, based on years of previous dealings.

Indeed, though again, that goes back to her mental state at the time. Buffy's obviously able to stop him as she did so in SR. However, that was after she'd started on the upswing from her depression. Prior to that, I don't know if she was in the right mental place to handle what was going on. Her phrasing, especially, in DT about how she "lets" Spike do those things to her implies a lot about how unsure her own consent was during that time.

[rebcake]

Though the BDSM crowd typically relies on SSC which require explicit consensual guidelines

Yeah. I think the flouting of that is what they were objecting to. It makes the whole undertaking look really irresponsible. Which it was.

Buffy's mental state is obviously the key thing here. Is she too disabled to consent? I don't like to think so, because it implies that depressed people shouldn't be allowed to determine their life choices. IMO, Spike is trying to help her, inexpertly, and leaving openings for her to call the shots. She doesn't take them, but it's hard (for us or for Spike) to tell if it's because she doesn't want to or simply can't. As you say in the post.

[gabrielleabelle]

Oh, definitely agreed on all counts. I think Spike's soullessness prevents him from recognizing the actual damage he's doing (until she flat-out tells him it's killing her in AYW). He thinks he's helping. He's just doing so in some very wrong ways.

For Buffy's part, it's very difficult for us to determine what was going on in her head during those incidents. Hell, I don't even think she knows. Personally, I'd say she'd started deferring to carnal instinct and saying, "Fuck you" to her super-ego.

[menomegirl]

Very well-written post. I don't have much to add except, in my opinion, Seeing Red *was* different, if *only* because the writers took the time to injure Buffy before the bathroom scene. That automatically made the viewing audience see her as an object of sympathy.

[gabrielleabelle]

I do have quite a few issues with how the AR was presented. Specifically, I think having a commercial break in the middle of it is appalling. But yes, the staging to have Buffy be injured is very contrived. Though it obviously wasn't successful in gaining her sympathy from the entire viewing audience.

[menomegirl]

Agreed. That commercial break was probably the longest few minutes I've ever spent watching a fictional show. It made me feel physically ill.

Though it obviously wasn't successful in gaining her sympathy from the entire viewing audience.

Well, it was kind of hard to feel a whole lot of sympathy for Buffy when she'd just beat Spike all to hell in an alley a few episodes before.

This is one of the reasons I loathe SR.

[gabrielleabelle]

Well, it was kind of hard to feel a whole lot of sympathy for Buffy when she'd just beat Spike all to hell in an alley a few episodes before.

Eh, I managed to feel sympathy for her immediately after said scene, so my sympathy was definitely still with her in SR. Not that hard.