Comments | gabrielleabelle: Being a Fan: AtS Edition

gabrielleabelle

Being a Fan: AtS Edition

Aug 14, 2010 17:35

Ah, AtS is always an oversight for me. In my just-posted poll on being a fan, I asked about BtVS but not AtS. Here I ask about AtS.

Let me copy&paste the directions from the previous poll (with appropriate AtS substitutions):

So here's the question on this one: As a whole, did you like the narrative of AtS? Starting from the first moments of City ( Read more... )

poll, ats

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2maggie2 August 14 2010, 23:12:49 UTC

Close call for me. But I'll go with my best read -- it's an epic tragedy. Angel never manages to escape himself. Everyone in his circle dies. His own last act refuses the lessons he tried to learn but never could really own and represents the complete failure/inversion of his every asperation. The heroic trappings are deeply ironic. The real weaknesses of the show -- most notably the lack of integrity to the stories of all the other characters is just part of the tragedy. Angel is the classic tragic figure about whom the world revolves, and his own failure destroys everyone. I'm not sure they intended that -- but it's as close to classic tragedy as I've seen in modern culture, so yay.

menomegirl August 14 2010, 23:15:49 UTC

What she said.

:)

ceciliaj August 14 2010, 23:22:04 UTC

You've read the epic "World Without Love" essay, right? here.

2maggie2 August 14 2010, 23:23:08 UTC

Nope -- but thanks for the tip! Off to read...

ceciliaj August 14 2010, 23:24:35 UTC

No! Wait for me to find a better link. That one is partial I think...

2maggie2 August 14 2010, 23:24:56 UTC

Intriguing first three paragraphs though...

ceciliaj August 14 2010, 23:27:19 UTC

Hee, now I feel like a tease. This looks complete tho...http://www.whedon.info/A-world-without-love-an-essay-on.html

GAH I will never make suggestions again. Stupid triggery ad-filled sites...

2maggie2 August 14 2010, 23:41:28 UTC

Evil ads! But an interesting essay -- thanks for the link!

gabrielleabelle August 14 2010, 23:24:27 UTC

That's my read of the show, too.

But I still don't like it. I abhor Angel's Hero Complex. I absolutely hate that flavor of Angel. I hate how the premise requires such icky narrative twists as destroying Cordy's character and brutally killing Fred.

Eh, Me/AtS was just never meant to be.

2maggie2 August 14 2010, 23:27:19 UTC

Well, you asked if I liked the narrative, and I do. I don't much like Angel, though I do find him interesting. I adore Cordelia and hate what they did to her. etc. etc. There's a reason I've only watched the show a few times.

But the narrative arc? Pretty cool.

gabrielleabelle August 14 2010, 23:29:46 UTC

Oh, I know! I was just sharing my own opinion on the show with regards to your summation of the central narrative. Not meant to be challenging.

2maggie2 August 14 2010, 23:38:45 UTC

I was trying to say I think we agree!! I don't like the show. Notice how much meta I don't write about it. But I admire the story, if that makes any sense. I just parsed your question differently than you do.

gabrielleabelle August 14 2010, 23:45:46 UTC

Ah, gotcha! :)

eowyn_315 August 15 2010, 04:10:35 UTC

I hate how the premise requires such icky narrative twists as destroying Cordy's character and brutally killing Fred.

Huh. I would not have said the premise requires those twists. I think it's totally possible to tell Angel's story without destroying all the women, which is one of the reasons I'm disappointed in the writers for going to that well so many times.

gabrielleabelle August 15 2010, 04:27:57 UTC

Eh, most of the feminist defenses I've seen of AtS stress that the destruction of those two characters are necessary for Angel's larger story (and, in fact, somehow convey a feminist message as to the danger of what Angel is trying to achieve or something).

eowyn_315 August 15 2010, 04:39:50 UTC

Well, that's... the opposite of the direction I would've gone in, lol. Honestly, "feminist defense of AtS" sounds like an oxymoron to me. :)

I would say that it's necessary for Angel's larger story that he lose the people he loves, but that doesn't dictate that all those people have to be women - Doyle's death was effective, so why couldn't Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, or Spike bite it instead of Darla, Cordy, and Fred? (Except noooo, not Spike!) Nor is it necessary that if the women ARE killed, they all have to be killed in a way that dehumanizes them and violates their bodily autonomy. The fact that it IS so unnecessary is what infuriates me the most about it.

(The thing that I find interesting, actually, is that Cordy and Fred appear to have been chosen because of the actors, not because of the story. Cordy was always meant to turn evil, so it's unclear if she'd have survived, but Charisma seemed to think that she was written off the show because of her pregnancy. And the number one reason I hear for Illyria is that Joss wanted to give ( ... )

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